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dotnet windows forms
group:Winforms over LAN and Internet - Best approach? (WS, Remoting, etc)
dotnet windows forms:
I am starting a project that may be suitable for vb.net, using windows
forms. I want a rich client, thus win forms vs web forms. Most users will access the app data over a LAN, but some will be remote users, accessing via vpn. I could use terminal services for this but am thinking that an alternate technology like remoting or web servies could be viable. - Rich client - N-Tier - LAN & Internet clients (via VPN) - Same interface for local and remote users - Easy deploy to remote users - Local and remote users will need to retrieve and update data from db - Has to be secure From what I've read, remoting sounds like it could work well, but that it's already on the way out in favor of some future edition of web services. My understanding is that the reason I couldn't use the current implementation of .net web services for this app is that it's not effective for data updates and uses xml for data transfers (thus bloat). Is that right? I'm new to .net, and need this all to be as simple to pick up as possible. I'd really appreciate any pointers as to which technology set would be most appropriate to gain exposure to. If the upcoming edition of .net isn't too far down the road, and if it offers significant benefits for this sort of project, that'd be great...in particular, if remoting is going to go away, what should I be looking at? I don't mind buying a 3rd party dev framework if that could simplify. Any books or articles out there that address this topic? Posting to 3 newsgroups as all seemed like they might have different and
The easiest way would be web services. Use multiple threads for data
interaction/responses to web services to ensure a rich user application. Depending on the requirements, you could go with remoting or event COM+ services. All three have their own benefits and limitations. From the sounds of it though, the web services would be your easiest solution. Let me know if you have more of the requirements and I could be more specific. I hope this was helpful. [quoted text, click to view] "kiln" wrote:
> I am starting a project that may be suitable for vb.net, using windows > forms. I want a rich client, thus win forms vs web forms. Most users > will access the app data over a LAN, but some will be remote users, > accessing via vpn. I could use terminal services for this but am > thinking that an alternate technology like remoting or web servies could > be viable. > > - Rich client > - N-Tier > - LAN & Internet clients (via VPN) > - Same interface for local and remote users > - Easy deploy to remote users > - Local and remote users will need to retrieve and update data from db > - Has to be secure > > From what I've read, remoting sounds like it could work well, but that > it's already on the way out in favor of some future edition of web > services. My understanding is that the reason I couldn't use the current > implementation of .net web services for this app is that it's not > effective for data updates and uses xml for data transfers (thus bloat). > Is that right? > > I'm new to .net, and need this all to be as simple to pick up as > possible. I'd really appreciate any pointers as to which technology set > would be most appropriate to gain exposure to. If the upcoming edition > of .net isn't too far down the road, and if it offers significant > benefits for this sort of project, that'd be great...in particular, if > remoting is going to go away, what should I be looking at? > > I don't mind buying a 3rd party dev framework if that could simplify. > Any books or articles out there that address this topic? > > Posting to 3 newsgroups as all seemed like they might have different and > relevant perspectives on this subject.
Thanks for all of that. I somehow had the impression that web services
wasn't really meant for updates, that it was more for data retrieval etc. One "limitation" of remoting from what I gather is that it's more complex than web services; web services has more of the plumbing in place. If true that would be a big plus for me. But I'd thought that part of the issue too with webservices is that by transmitting everything as xml, the amt of data sent over the wire is quite expanded, and that conversions on both ends add to the processing load. Wouldn't this be so? Functionally the app will be your standard data entry, update, report, scenario just like most client server apps are. In article <CFFCFA9D-670B-48EA-911F-B5EF480B17B9@microsoft.com>, ExtremeDatasets@discussions.microsoft.com says... [quoted text, click to view] > The easiest way would be web services. Use multiple threads for data
> interaction/responses to web services to ensure a rich user application. > Depending on the requirements, you could go with remoting or event COM+ > services. All three have their own benefits and limitations. From the sounds > of it though, the web services would be your easiest solution. > > Let me know if you have more of the requirements and I could be more specific. > I hope this was helpful. > > > "kiln" wrote: > > > I am starting a project that may be suitable for vb.net, using windows > > forms. I want a rich client, thus win forms vs web forms. Most users > > will access the app data over a LAN, but some will be remote users, > > accessing via vpn. I could use terminal services for this but am > > thinking that an alternate technology like remoting or web servies could > > be viable. > > > > - Rich client > > - N-Tier > > - LAN & Internet clients (via VPN) > > - Same interface for local and remote users > > - Easy deploy to remote users > > - Local and remote users will need to retrieve and update data from db > > - Has to be secure > > > > From what I've read, remoting sounds like it could work well, but that > > it's already on the way out in favor of some future edition of web > > services. My understanding is that the reason I couldn't use the current > > implementation of .net web services for this app is that it's not > > effective for data updates and uses xml for data transfers (thus bloat). > > Is that right? > > > > I'm new to .net, and need this all to be as simple to pick up as > > possible. I'd really appreciate any pointers as to which technology set > > would be most appropriate to gain exposure to. If the upcoming edition > > of .net isn't too far down the road, and if it offers significant > > benefits for this sort of project, that'd be great...in particular, if > > remoting is going to go away, what should I be looking at? > > > > I don't mind buying a 3rd party dev framework if that could simplify. > > Any books or articles out there that address this topic? > > > > Posting to 3 newsgroups as all seemed like they might have different and > > relevant perspectives on this subject. > >
OK, thanks, thats the second webservices vote here. Most remoting
articles plug the efficient binary transer vs soap that ws uses; what about that? Are there any books or good articles, focus points on the web, for these technologies? I'd love to find a couple of real world mini db app examples that I could see work. Would you recommend vs 2003, or the vs 2005 beta for kicking the tires? I have vs 2003 pro; don't have any access to the 2005 beta other than the express previews. In article <OJCkA8zBFHA.3940@TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl>, staceywREMOVE@mvps.org says... [quoted text, click to view] > WSE using ws-security and/or ws-secureconversation. Very flexible and
> allows complete secure conversation or just the parts you need. Can do > anything you can do in code in the server web method, so have at it. If the > WSE web service is not the db box itself, you would probably want to secure > the link between the web server and the db using IPSec so no data or > connection strings can be picked over the internal wire. >
You have a lot of questions and of course a lot of answers that I waiting
to. The way I use WinForms with a SQL database is with a simple alias from the client utility, this work great for me, and don't have to change any line of code and the WinForm app work with a server datadase any where at LAN or WAN or internet This way I get the best of both worlds, the rich and smart desktop application (and lot easer) and the data centralized at internet some where. The client only have to install the application and can download and install notouch deployment and doesn't matter where is running , he get the centralized information they need I want to see the other scenarios MajorTom [quoted text, click to view] "kiln" <kiln@brick-like.com> wrote in message news:MPG.1c66bd4b5ce441e598991a@msnews.microsoft.com... > I am starting a project that may be suitable for vb.net, using windows > forms. I want a rich client, thus win forms vs web forms. Most users > will access the app data over a LAN, but some will be remote users, > accessing via vpn. I could use terminal services for this but am > thinking that an alternate technology like remoting or web servies could > be viable. > > - Rich client > - N-Tier > - LAN & Internet clients (via VPN) > - Same interface for local and remote users > - Easy deploy to remote users > - Local and remote users will need to retrieve and update data from db > - Has to be secure > > From what I've read, remoting sounds like it could work well, but that > it's already on the way out in favor of some future edition of web > services. My understanding is that the reason I couldn't use the current > implementation of .net web services for this app is that it's not > effective for data updates and uses xml for data transfers (thus bloat). > Is that right? > > I'm new to .net, and need this all to be as simple to pick up as > possible. I'd really appreciate any pointers as to which technology set > would be most appropriate to gain exposure to. If the upcoming edition > of .net isn't too far down the road, and if it offers significant > benefits for this sort of project, that'd be great...in particular, if > remoting is going to go away, what should I be looking at? > > I don't mind buying a 3rd party dev framework if that could simplify. > Any books or articles out there that address this topic? > > Posting to 3 newsgroups as all seemed like they might have different and > relevant perspectives on this subject.
WSE using ws-security and/or ws-secureconversation. Very flexible and
allows complete secure conversation or just the parts you need. Can do anything you can do in code in the server web method, so have at it. If the WSE web service is not the db box itself, you would probably want to secure the link between the web server and the db using IPSec so no data or connection strings can be picked over the internal wire. -- William Stacey, MVP http://mvp.support.microsoft.com [quoted text, click to view] "kiln" <kiln@brick-like.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.1c66bd4b5ce441e598991a@msnews.microsoft.com... > I am starting a project that may be suitable for vb.net, using windows > forms. I want a rich client, thus win forms vs web forms. Most users > will access the app data over a LAN, but some will be remote users, > accessing via vpn. I could use terminal services for this but am > thinking that an alternate technology like remoting or web servies could > be viable. > > - Rich client > - N-Tier > - LAN & Internet clients (via VPN) > - Same interface for local and remote users > - Easy deploy to remote users > - Local and remote users will need to retrieve and update data from db > - Has to be secure > > From what I've read, remoting sounds like it could work well, but that > it's already on the way out in favor of some future edition of web > services. My understanding is that the reason I couldn't use the current > implementation of .net web services for this app is that it's not > effective for data updates and uses xml for data transfers (thus bloat). > Is that right? > > I'm new to .net, and need this all to be as simple to pick up as > possible. I'd really appreciate any pointers as to which technology set > would be most appropriate to gain exposure to. If the upcoming edition > of .net isn't too far down the road, and if it offers significant > benefits for this sort of project, that'd be great...in particular, if > remoting is going to go away, what should I be looking at? > > I don't mind buying a 3rd party dev framework if that could simplify. > Any books or articles out there that address this topic? > > Posting to 3 newsgroups as all seemed like they might have different and > relevant perspectives on this subject.
Thanks that's super advice.
Versioning of what part of remoting is 'killer'? Did you mean updating the client software, or did you mean that remoting technology is shifting enough to make dev difficult? Are you aware of *any* .net web service app, a tutorial or sample app or anything, that uses web forms and includes updates to the server data from the client, that I could have a look at? In article <O$iqGi0BFHA.3588@TK2MSFTNGP11.phx.gbl>, staceywREMOVE@mvps.org says... [quoted text, click to view] > WSE is not same thing as IIS Web services, however you can use WSE in IIS
> Web services. You can also use WSE without IIS using soap.tcp as transport > (which I like). I would not use remoting over the web. I probably would > not use current remoting at all as versioning is a killer. The next version > of remoting will address some of those issues to make it much better. > However, all the mind capital is going with WS specs and web services and > they have standards and published specs so they interop with other > platforms. Strick perf of the WS -vs- remoting is not the question IMO. > Compared to the whole app, the binary vs soap perf is small. I would rather > write my services in WSE today so that others could use via standards then > have to do it twice (once for remoting and once for public web service > apis.) You can also leverage a lot of WS security stuff already baked in. > I would get the WSE 2.0 for your VS 2003 and start working with it. sp2 is > supposed to work with VS2005, but I would stick with 2003 for now. >
WSE is not same thing as IIS Web services, however you can use WSE in IIS
Web services. You can also use WSE without IIS using soap.tcp as transport (which I like). I would not use remoting over the web. I probably would not use current remoting at all as versioning is a killer. The next version of remoting will address some of those issues to make it much better. However, all the mind capital is going with WS specs and web services and they have standards and published specs so they interop with other platforms. Strick perf of the WS -vs- remoting is not the question IMO. Compared to the whole app, the binary vs soap perf is small. I would rather write my services in WSE today so that others could use via standards then have to do it twice (once for remoting and once for public web service apis.) You can also leverage a lot of WS security stuff already baked in. I would get the WSE 2.0 for your VS 2003 and start working with it. sp2 is supposed to work with VS2005, but I would stick with 2003 for now. -- William Stacey, MVP http://mvp.support.microsoft.com [quoted text, click to view] "kiln" <kiln@brick-like.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.1c67451ebf99004798991d@msnews.microsoft.com... > OK, thanks, thats the second webservices vote here. Most remoting > articles plug the efficient binary transer vs soap that ws uses; what > about that? > > Are there any books or good articles, focus points on the web, for these > technologies? I'd love to find a couple of real world mini db app > examples that I could see work. > > Would you recommend vs 2003, or the vs 2005 beta for kicking the tires? > I have vs 2003 pro; don't have any access to the 2005 beta other than > the express previews. > > In article <OJCkA8zBFHA.3940@TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl>, > staceywREMOVE@mvps.org says... > > WSE using ws-security and/or ws-secureconversation. Very flexible and > > allows complete secure conversation or just the parts you need. Can do > > anything you can do in code in the server web method, so have at it. If the > > WSE web service is not the db box itself, you would probably want to secure > > the link between the web server and the db using IPSec so no data or > > connection strings can be picked over the internal wire. > > > >
We are using .NET Remoting but are a backend to an application over LAN
only. For scalability reasons, we are using Remoting hosted in IIS so we can use the web garden to take advantage of multiple CPUs. The structure we are using is HTTP using binary formatter BUT I am currently in the process of looking to create a custom sink to Zip the data that is going over the wire so that datasets can be compressed before and after transmission. I noticed that I could get 100K down to 9k in some instances due to repitition in XML. I am not sure this would be best in your circumstance but thought I would put it out the for consideration. Fred [quoted text, click to view] "kiln" <kiln@brick-like.com> wrote in message news:MPG.1c66bd4b5ce441e598991a@msnews.microsoft.com... > I am starting a project that may be suitable for vb.net, using windows > forms. I want a rich client, thus win forms vs web forms. Most users > will access the app data over a LAN, but some will be remote users, > accessing via vpn. I could use terminal services for this but am > thinking that an alternate technology like remoting or web servies could > be viable. > > - Rich client > - N-Tier > - LAN & Internet clients (via VPN) > - Same interface for local and remote users > - Easy deploy to remote users > - Local and remote users will need to retrieve and update data from db > - Has to be secure > > From what I've read, remoting sounds like it could work well, but that > it's already on the way out in favor of some future edition of web > services. My understanding is that the reason I couldn't use the current > implementation of .net web services for this app is that it's not > effective for data updates and uses xml for data transfers (thus bloat). > Is that right? > > I'm new to .net, and need this all to be as simple to pick up as > possible. I'd really appreciate any pointers as to which technology set > would be most appropriate to gain exposure to. If the upcoming edition > of .net isn't too far down the road, and if it offers significant > benefits for this sort of project, that'd be great...in particular, if > remoting is going to go away, what should I be looking at? > > I don't mind buying a 3rd party dev framework if that could simplify. > Any books or articles out there that address this topic? > > Posting to 3 newsgroups as all seemed like they might have different and > relevant perspectives on this subject.
I am going to do performance testing to see what this will do but I am
expecting to make it somewhat intelligent (and maybe highly customized to our app) so that it will detect when it should deflate the stream and signal the client when to inflate. This could eliminate those situations where there is more time spent in zip/unzip than transmission. We are sending large datasets and so for us it should be a small gain ~1-3 seconds. Fred [quoted text, click to view] "William Stacey [MVP]" <staceywREMOVE@mvps.org> wrote in message news:etzjsu6BFHA.3376@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl... > > looking to create a custom sink to Zip the data that is going over the > wire > > so that datasets can be compressed before and after transmission. I > noticed > > that I could get 100K down to 9k in some instances due to repitition in > XML. > > I would test the perf before and after. Although you send less data, the > zip before and unzip at receiver adds time and costs cpu. You may end up > with less wire data at the cost of less performance - so does that hurt your > goal of doing it in the first place? > > -- > William Stacey, MVP > http://mvp.support.microsoft.com > >
[quoted text, click to view]
> looking to create a custom sink to Zip the data that is going over the XML.wire > so that datasets can be compressed before and after transmission. I noticed > that I could get 100K down to 9k in some instances due to repitition in I would test the perf before and after. Although you send less data, the zip before and unzip at receiver adds time and costs cpu. You may end up with less wire data at the cost of less performance - so does that hurt your goal of doing it in the first place? -- William Stacey, MVP http://mvp.support.microsoft.com
Thanks for responding...could you give me an example (some article etc
on the web) that describes what you mean by "simple alias from the client utility"? I'm new to .net and I'm not sure what client utility you refer to...you mean SQL alias in ADO that points to a server over a vpn, something like that? In article <Ol7U9VzBFHA.2180@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl>, m.pulgarNO@NOverizon.net.do says... [quoted text, click to view] > You have a lot of questions and of course a lot of answers that I waiting
> to. > > The way I use WinForms with a SQL database is with a simple alias from the > client utility, this work great for me, and don't have to change any line of > code and the WinForm app work with a server datadase any where at LAN or WAN > or internet > > This way I get the best of both worlds, the rich and smart desktop > application (and lot easer) and the data centralized at internet some where. > The client only have to install the application and can download and install > notouch deployment and doesn't matter where is running , he get the > centralized information they need > > I want to see the other scenarios > > MajorTom > > > > > "kiln" <kiln@brick-like.com> wrote in message > news:MPG.1c66bd4b5ce441e598991a@msnews.microsoft.com... > > I am starting a project that may be suitable for vb.net, using windows > > forms. I want a rich client, thus win forms vs web forms. Most users > > will access the app data over a LAN, but some will be remote users, > > accessing via vpn. I could use terminal services for this but am > > thinking that an alternate technology like remoting or web servies could > > be viable. > > > > - Rich client > > - N-Tier > > - LAN & Internet clients (via VPN) > > - Same interface for local and remote users > > - Easy deploy to remote users > > - Local and remote users will need to retrieve and update data from db > > - Has to be secure > > > > From what I've read, remoting sounds like it could work well, but that > > it's already on the way out in favor of some future edition of web > > services. My understanding is that the reason I couldn't use the current > > implementation of .net web services for this app is that it's not > > effective for data updates and uses xml for data transfers (thus bloat). > > Is that right? > > > > I'm new to .net, and need this all to be as simple to pick up as > > possible. I'd really appreciate any pointers as to which technology set > > would be most appropriate to gain exposure to. If the upcoming edition > > of .net isn't too far down the road, and if it offers significant
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