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into this situation before. I sell an app and I want to offer my customers a migration path from a competing product. However, my competitor stores all data in an Microsoft Access database, which is password protected. Now, I can easily break the password and export all the data necessary into my app. In fact, I did break the password by downloading a $10 app from the net and running it against the MS Access database. My question is whether it is legal for me to do so. After, the data in the database belongs to the customer, not to my competitor.
that depends on the agreement(s) that your customer "signed" when they
installed their software -- --- Nick Malik [Microsoft] MCSD, CFPS, Certified Scrummaster http://blogs.msdn.com/nickmalik Disclaimer: Opinions expressed in this forum are my own, and not representative of my employer. I do not answer questions on behalf of my employer. I'm just a programmer helping programmers. -- [quoted text, click to view] "Frank Rizzo" <nospam@nospam.com> wrote in message news:%23MnDzeU8EHA.3504@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl... > I realize that this maybe the wrong forum, but maybe someone has run > into this situation before. I sell an app and I want to offer my > customers a migration path from a competing product. However, my > competitor stores all data in an Microsoft Access database, which is > password protected. Now, I can easily break the password and export all > the data necessary into my app. In fact, I did break the password by > downloading a $10 app from the net and running it against the MS Access > database. My question is whether it is legal for me to do so. After, > the data in the database belongs to the customer, not to my competitor. > > Thanks.
[quoted text, click to view]
Bernie Yaeger wrote: This password is not something that the user types in. The >Hi Frank, > >Not a legal expert, but if your customer set the pwd and no longer knows it >and your customer owns the data and your customer asked you to break the pwd >to get at the data, I can't imagine that you are in any way exposed. As >Nick Malik said, it may depend somewhat on what your customer signed when >they purchased MS Access, but 1) that is between your customer and MS, not >you and 2) almost everyone with MS Access simply installs the software and >uses it and has rights to the data it contains. > > userid/password is hardwired into the application that the customer is using. [quoted text, click to view] >HTH,
> >Bernie Yaeger > >"Frank Rizzo" <nospam@nospam.com> wrote in message >news:%23MnDzeU8EHA.3504@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl... > > >>I realize that this maybe the wrong forum, but maybe someone has run into >>this situation before. I sell an app and I want to offer my customers a >>migration path from a competing product. However, my competitor stores all >>data in an Microsoft Access database, which is password protected. Now, I >>can easily break the password and export all the data necessary into my >>app. In fact, I did break the password by downloading a $10 app from the >>net and running it against the MS Access database. My question is whether >>it is legal for me to do so. After, the data in the database belongs to >>the customer, not to my competitor. >> >>Thanks. >> >> > > >
Thank you for your answer. Just to clarify a couple of things, the
agreement to exchange data with the competitor is unlikely to happen since he is the goliath and I am david (in our business). Secondly, as far as trying to locate a lawyer, I am unable to find one specializing in these matters. All the generic lawyers I talked to all say "don't do it". [quoted text, click to view] Gerald Hernandez wrote:
>Frank... > >"Frank Rizzo" <nospam@nospam.com> wrote in message >news:%23MnDzeU8EHA.3504@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl... > > >>I realize that this maybe the wrong forum, but maybe someone has run >>into this situation before. I sell an app and I want to offer my >>customers a migration path from a competing product. However, my >>competitor stores all data in an Microsoft Access database, which is >>password protected. Now, I can easily break the password and export all >>the data necessary into my app. In fact, I did break the password by >>downloading a $10 app from the net and running it against the MS Access >>database. My question is whether it is legal for me to do so. After, >>the data in the database belongs to the customer, not to my competitor. >> >>Thanks. >> >> > >This is a slippery slope. I am no lawyer, but have some experience in this >area. >You are correct in that "generally" speaking, a customer owns any data they >enter in an application. However, the application developer also has some >rights, as they should. While the customer owns "their" data, there may be >other data in the database proprietary to the other developer. Additionally, >the other developer can claim rights to the structure of the database, how >it is accessed, and how data is inter-related. For example how one record >may key and relate to another can be considered intellectual property and >proprietary, to mention just one. > >Whether you can freely access the stored data also depends upon the level of >accessability provided by the other developer. In this case, someone >password protected the database. If it was the customer, then you have no >real issues. If it was the competitor, then it is their intention that >no-one should get into the database. While it might be pretty easy to crack >the password, doing so is an attempt to circumvent protection and in >violation of their rights. > >To keep yourself out of trouble, the best course of action would be to work >out an agreement with the competitor. While this is unlikely to happen, it >sometimes does and is generally to everyone's best interest. > >Failing that, your next best choice, well besides getting true legal advice >from a qualified source, would be the following: >Have your customer work out the data ownership details with the competitor. >Since they "should" have legal claim to their data, the competitor should >provide them a method of getting to their data. It might be by providing the >password to the database. It might be by providing some sort of export >utility, or other means. >If they are provided with an export, then unless other restrictions are >agreed to by the customer, you should be free to take the exported data and >do whatever you like with it. >If they are provided with a password, then you should be able to legally >access the data in the database by having the customer key in the password >in your app. Note, this only applies to data for which the customer has been >allowed to access, and only if "they" key in the password. Do not compile it >into your application! Unless you have been granted access by the >competitor, you should not do this. It is the customer's data, not yours. > >Good luck, >Gerald > > >
Frank...
[quoted text, click to view] "Frank Rizzo" <nospam@nospam.com> wrote in message news:%23MnDzeU8EHA.3504@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl... > I realize that this maybe the wrong forum, but maybe someone has run > into this situation before. I sell an app and I want to offer my > customers a migration path from a competing product. However, my > competitor stores all data in an Microsoft Access database, which is > password protected. Now, I can easily break the password and export all > the data necessary into my app. In fact, I did break the password by > downloading a $10 app from the net and running it against the MS Access > database. My question is whether it is legal for me to do so. After, > the data in the database belongs to the customer, not to my competitor. > > Thanks. This is a slippery slope. I am no lawyer, but have some experience in this area. You are correct in that "generally" speaking, a customer owns any data they enter in an application. However, the application developer also has some rights, as they should. While the customer owns "their" data, there may be other data in the database proprietary to the other developer. Additionally, the other developer can claim rights to the structure of the database, how it is accessed, and how data is inter-related. For example how one record may key and relate to another can be considered intellectual property and proprietary, to mention just one. Whether you can freely access the stored data also depends upon the level of accessability provided by the other developer. In this case, someone password protected the database. If it was the customer, then you have no real issues. If it was the competitor, then it is their intention that no-one should get into the database. While it might be pretty easy to crack the password, doing so is an attempt to circumvent protection and in violation of their rights. To keep yourself out of trouble, the best course of action would be to work out an agreement with the competitor. While this is unlikely to happen, it sometimes does and is generally to everyone's best interest. Failing that, your next best choice, well besides getting true legal advice from a qualified source, would be the following: Have your customer work out the data ownership details with the competitor. Since they "should" have legal claim to their data, the competitor should provide them a method of getting to their data. It might be by providing the password to the database. It might be by providing some sort of export utility, or other means. If they are provided with an export, then unless other restrictions are agreed to by the customer, you should be free to take the exported data and do whatever you like with it. If they are provided with a password, then you should be able to legally access the data in the database by having the customer key in the password in your app. Note, this only applies to data for which the customer has been allowed to access, and only if "they" key in the password. Do not compile it into your application! Unless you have been granted access by the competitor, you should not do this. It is the customer's data, not yours. Good luck, Gerald
A couple of points not otherwise mentioned.
First, contact the FSF for some authorative help. They can point you to legal experts who will have answers. Second, IMHO, so long as you are only extracting data that the customer owns and are not making use of the internal structures of the DB as provided by Goliath, your exposure should be minimal. Last, when all else fails, provide a means to import data in a format that has been manually exported using Goliath's tools. It is the customer's absolute right to have access to their data, regardless of any license scheme imposed by a third party. Imagine the world we would live in if such were not the case. Bo [quoted text, click to view] Frank Rizzo wrote:
> Thank you for your answer. Just to clarify a couple of things, the > agreement to exchange data with the competitor is unlikely to happen > since he is the goliath and I am david (in our business). Secondly, as > far as trying to locate a lawyer, I am unable to find one specializing > in these matters. All the generic lawyers I talked to all say "don't do > it".
Frank...
I understand that trying to get an agreement with a competitor is difficult if not impossible. But it is usually worth trying. It does happen more times than you would think. But sadly, not as often as you might like. If nothing else, it might give you an idea of just how aggressively they intend to protect the data you wish to get to. Yes, finding a lawyer who has experience in a specific area can be quite difficult and is usually expensive. However, if you do feel you have a marketable product that can justify the expense, I highly recommend you do find one. On a couple of occasions, I found it beneficial to hire a lawyer for the purpose of finding a lawyer with the required specialty. Seems silly, and can be expensive, but the results were good. If nothing else, you really need to determine the true nature of the agreement between the other vendor and your potential customer(s). Gerald [quoted text, click to view] "Frank Rizzo" <none@none.com> wrote in message news:OEe0Zwb8EHA.1292@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl... > Thank you for your answer. Just to clarify a couple of things, the > agreement to exchange data with the competitor is unlikely to happen > since he is the goliath and I am david (in our business). Secondly, as > far as trying to locate a lawyer, I am unable to find one specializing > in these matters. All the generic lawyers I talked to all say "don't do > it". > > Gerald Hernandez wrote: > > >Frank... > > > >"Frank Rizzo" <nospam@nospam.com> wrote in message > >news:%23MnDzeU8EHA.3504@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl... > > > > > >>I realize that this maybe the wrong forum, but maybe someone has run > >>into this situation before. I sell an app and I want to offer my > >>customers a migration path from a competing product. However, my > >>competitor stores all data in an Microsoft Access database, which is > >>password protected. Now, I can easily break the password and export all > >>the data necessary into my app. In fact, I did break the password by > >>downloading a $10 app from the net and running it against the MS Access > >>database. My question is whether it is legal for me to do so. After, > >>the data in the database belongs to the customer, not to my competitor. > >> > >>Thanks. > >> > >> > > > >This is a slippery slope. I am no lawyer, but have some experience in this > >area. > >You are correct in that "generally" speaking, a customer owns any data they > >enter in an application. However, the application developer also has some > >rights, as they should. While the customer owns "their" data, there may be > >other data in the database proprietary to the other developer. Additionally, > >the other developer can claim rights to the structure of the database, how > >it is accessed, and how data is inter-related. For example how one record > >may key and relate to another can be considered intellectual property and > >proprietary, to mention just one. > > > >Whether you can freely access the stored data also depends upon the level of > >accessability provided by the other developer. In this case, someone > >password protected the database. If it was the customer, then you have no > >real issues. If it was the competitor, then it is their intention that > >no-one should get into the database. While it might be pretty easy to crack > >the password, doing so is an attempt to circumvent protection and in > >violation of their rights. > > > >To keep yourself out of trouble, the best course of action would be to work > >out an agreement with the competitor. While this is unlikely to happen, it > >sometimes does and is generally to everyone's best interest. > > > >Failing that, your next best choice, well besides getting true legal advice > >from a qualified source, would be the following: > >Have your customer work out the data ownership details with the competitor. > >Since they "should" have legal claim to their data, the competitor should > >provide them a method of getting to their data. It might be by providing the > >password to the database. It might be by providing some sort of export > >utility, or other means. > >If they are provided with an export, then unless other restrictions are > >agreed to by the customer, you should be free to take the exported data and > >do whatever you like with it. > >If they are provided with a password, then you should be able to legally > >access the data in the database by having the customer key in the password > >in your app. Note, this only applies to data for which the customer has been > >allowed to access, and only if "they" key in the password. Do not compile it > >into your application! Unless you have been granted access by the > >competitor, you should not do this. It is the customer's data, not yours. > > > >Good luck, > >Gerald > > > > > > > >
Hi Frank,
Not a legal expert, but if your customer set the pwd and no longer knows it and your customer owns the data and your customer asked you to break the pwd to get at the data, I can't imagine that you are in any way exposed. As Nick Malik said, it may depend somewhat on what your customer signed when they purchased MS Access, but 1) that is between your customer and MS, not you and 2) almost everyone with MS Access simply installs the software and uses it and has rights to the data it contains. HTH, Bernie Yaeger [quoted text, click to view] "Frank Rizzo" <nospam@nospam.com> wrote in message news:%23MnDzeU8EHA.3504@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl... >I realize that this maybe the wrong forum, but maybe someone has run into >this situation before. I sell an app and I want to offer my customers a >migration path from a competing product. However, my competitor stores all >data in an Microsoft Access database, which is password protected. Now, I >can easily break the password and export all the data necessary into my >app. In fact, I did break the password by downloading a $10 app from the >net and running it against the MS Access database. My question is whether >it is legal for me to do so. After, the data in the database belongs to >the customer, not to my competitor. > > Thanks.
The Goliath's software does provide a way to export data, but it is so
complicated for an average user and so wrought with error messages and meaningless message boxes , that I think they put it in there as a red herring, just to prevent people from exporting data. I think it is safe to say that they don't want the data exported. So, I could provide instructions to my customers for exporting data, but the process would be too difficult. Good idea about FSF - given that it is what they deal with day in, day out. [quoted text, click to view] Bo Gusman wrote:
> A couple of points not otherwise mentioned. > > First, contact the FSF for some authorative help. They can point you > to legal experts who will have answers. > > Second, IMHO, so long as you are only extracting data that the > customer owns and are not making use of the internal structures of the > DB as provided by Goliath, your exposure should be minimal. > > Last, when all else fails, provide a means to import data in a format > that has been manually exported using Goliath's tools. It is the > customer's absolute right to have access to their data, regardless of > any license scheme imposed by a third party. Imagine the world we > would live in if such were not the case. > > Bo > > Frank Rizzo wrote: > >> Thank you for your answer. Just to clarify a couple of things, the >> agreement to exchange data with the competitor is unlikely to happen >> since he is the goliath and I am david (in our business). Secondly, >> as far as trying to locate a lawyer, I am unable to find one >> specializing in these matters. All the generic lawyers I talked to >> all say "don't do it".
Perhaps an agreement between you and the "goliath" won't happen.
However, if it is an Access app, the "goliath" may listen when his customer (your client) calls and asks for a way to export the data. (and, as Gerald pointed out, this gives you access to import it). Note: I have witnessed a situation where a database from under an application was simply zipped up and sent to a competitor, where the competitor opened the data and migrated it to their competing structure, as part of their standard services. This is more common than you can imagine. A password in Access is used to secure both the data and the code. It is possible that the license agreement that was signed, by the customer, upon installation of the competiting package, dictated that they did not have the right to view the code. However, it is also possible that it said nothing about the developer retaining ownership of the data. In that case, your client is within his rights to demand access to his data, and get it. (My original message was not about the license between MS and your client, as Bernie implied. I was referring the license between your competitor and your client. A totally different thing. Note: if there was no license agreement, then your competitor may have limited recourse... talk to an attorney.) -- --- Nick Malik [Microsoft] MCSD, CFPS, Certified Scrummaster http://blogs.msdn.com/nickmalik Disclaimer: Opinions expressed in this forum are my own, and not representative of my employer. I do not answer questions on behalf of my employer. I'm just a programmer helping programmers. -- [quoted text, click to view] "Frank Rizzo" <none@none.com> wrote in message news:OEe0Zwb8EHA.1292@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl... > Thank you for your answer. Just to clarify a couple of things, the > agreement to exchange data with the competitor is unlikely to happen > since he is the goliath and I am david (in our business). Secondly, as > far as trying to locate a lawyer, I am unable to find one specializing > in these matters. All the generic lawyers I talked to all say "don't do > it". > > Gerald Hernandez wrote: > > >Frank... > > > >"Frank Rizzo" <nospam@nospam.com> wrote in message > >news:%23MnDzeU8EHA.3504@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl... > > > > > >>I realize that this maybe the wrong forum, but maybe someone has run > >>into this situation before. I sell an app and I want to offer my > >>customers a migration path from a competing product. However, my > >>competitor stores all data in an Microsoft Access database, which is > >>password protected. Now, I can easily break the password and export all > >>the data necessary into my app. In fact, I did break the password by > >>downloading a $10 app from the net and running it against the MS Access > >>database. My question is whether it is legal for me to do so. After, > >>the data in the database belongs to the customer, not to my competitor. > >> > >>Thanks. > >> > >> > > > >This is a slippery slope. I am no lawyer, but have some experience in this > >area. > >You are correct in that "generally" speaking, a customer owns any data they > >enter in an application. However, the application developer also has some > >rights, as they should. While the customer owns "their" data, there may be > >other data in the database proprietary to the other developer. Additionally, > >the other developer can claim rights to the structure of the database, how > >it is accessed, and how data is inter-related. For example how one record > >may key and relate to another can be considered intellectual property and > >proprietary, to mention just one. > > > >Whether you can freely access the stored data also depends upon the level of > >accessability provided by the other developer. In this case, someone > >password protected the database. If it was the customer, then you have no > >real issues. If it was the competitor, then it is their intention that > >no-one should get into the database. While it might be pretty easy to crack > >the password, doing so is an attempt to circumvent protection and in > >violation of their rights. > > > >To keep yourself out of trouble, the best course of action would be to work > >out an agreement with the competitor. While this is unlikely to happen, it > >sometimes does and is generally to everyone's best interest. > > > >Failing that, your next best choice, well besides getting true legal advice > >from a qualified source, would be the following: > >Have your customer work out the data ownership details with the competitor. > >Since they "should" have legal claim to their data, the competitor should > >provide them a method of getting to their data. It might be by providing the > >password to the database. It might be by providing some sort of export > >utility, or other means. > >If they are provided with an export, then unless other restrictions are > >agreed to by the customer, you should be free to take the exported data and > >do whatever you like with it. > >If they are provided with a password, then you should be able to legally > >access the data in the database by having the customer key in the password > >in your app. Note, this only applies to data for which the customer has been > >allowed to access, and only if "they" key in the password. Do not compile it > >into your application! Unless you have been granted access by the > >competitor, you should not do this. It is the customer's data, not yours. > > > >Good luck, > >Gerald > > > > > > > >
Frank,
I had already written something however it was not that different from what Nick wrote, however now I see the message from Bernie I get another idea. Everything is of course dependable from local laws in every country where your program is sold. However I first thought the data in the database was from your competitor, now I get the idea that it is from his clients. I did not investigate it, however is he doing in every country a legal act to set that data than after a password that that client does not know. As I said I did not investigate it, however I have my doubts. Even more when I think now about the EU laws about interoperartibility than I become even in bigger doubt. So when you are in the EU, than try to check the laws about interoperartibility and what that means for you. (Now I think about it, I would do that when I was you in any case). Maybe it is other countries the same by the way. Cor
"Frank Rizzo" <nospam@nospam.com> schrieb:
[quoted text, click to view] >I realize that this maybe the wrong forum, but maybe someone has run into >this situation before. I sell an app and I want to offer my customers a >migration path from a competing product. However, my competitor stores all >data in an Microsoft Access database, which is password protected. Now, I >can easily break the password and export all the data necessary into my >app. In fact, I did break the password by downloading a $10 app from the >net and running it against the MS Access database. My question is whether >it is legal for me to do so. After, the data in the database belongs to >the customer, not to my competitor. Ask the competitor if he grants you the rights to do that... -- M S Herfried K. Wagner M V P <URL:http://dotnet.mvps.org/> V B <URL:http://dotnet.mvps.org/dotnet/faqs/>
How about something like WinBatch, write a script to automate the
process, compile the script and distribute it to your customers. Take away as much of the pain for your customers as you can and they'll love you for it! Bo [quoted text, click to view] Frank Rizzo wrote:
> The Goliath's software does provide a way to export data, but it is so > complicated for an average user and so wrought with error messages and > meaningless message boxes , that I think they put it in there as a red > herring, just to prevent people from exporting data. I think it is safe > to say that they don't want the data exported. So, I could provide > instructions to my customers for exporting data, but the process would > be too difficult. Good idea about FSF - given that it is what they deal > with day in, day out. > > Bo Gusman wrote: > >> A couple of points not otherwise mentioned. >> >> First, contact the FSF for some authorative help. They can point you >> to legal experts who will have answers. >> >> Second, IMHO, so long as you are only extracting data that the >> customer owns and are not making use of the internal structures of the >> DB as provided by Goliath, your exposure should be minimal. >> >> Last, when all else fails, provide a means to import data in a format >> that has been manually exported using Goliath's tools. It is the >> customer's absolute right to have access to their data, regardless of >> any license scheme imposed by a third party. Imagine the world we >> would live in if such were not the case. >> >> Bo >> >> Frank Rizzo wrote: >> >>> Thank you for your answer. Just to clarify a couple of things, the >>> agreement to exchange data with the competitor is unlikely to happen >>> since he is the goliath and I am david (in our business). Secondly, >>> as far as trying to locate a lawyer, I am unable to find one >>> specializing in these matters. All the generic lawyers I talked to >>> all say "don't do it".
[quoted text, click to view]
On Sun, 02 Jan 2005 19:58:16 -0800, Frank Rizzo <nospam@nospam.com> wrote: ¤ I realize that this maybe the wrong forum, but maybe someone has run ¤ into this situation before. I sell an app and I want to offer my ¤ customers a migration path from a competing product. However, my ¤ competitor stores all data in an Microsoft Access database, which is ¤ password protected. Now, I can easily break the password and export all ¤ the data necessary into my app. In fact, I did break the password by ¤ downloading a $10 app from the net and running it against the MS Access ¤ database. My question is whether it is legal for me to do so. After, ¤ the data in the database belongs to the customer, not to my competitor. ¤ ¤ Thanks. I doubt that it would be considered illegal given the circumstances you describe. However, keep in mind that whether it's legal or illegal, it doesn't preclude your competitor from suing you if they feel there is a licensing or intellectual property violation. This may be the reason why an attorney might recommend that you don't crack the password to extract the data. Paul ~~~ pclement@ameritech.net
Thanks, I'll give it a shot.
[quoted text, click to view] Bo Gusman wrote:
> How about something like WinBatch, write a script to automate the > process, compile the script and distribute it to your customers. Take > away as much of the pain for your customers as you can and they'll love > you for it! > > Bo > > Frank Rizzo wrote: > >> The Goliath's software does provide a way to export data, but it is so >> complicated for an average user and so wrought with error messages and >> meaningless message boxes , that I think they put it in there as a red >> herring, just to prevent people from exporting data. I think it is >> safe to say that they don't want the data exported. So, I could >> provide instructions to my customers for exporting data, but the >> process would be too difficult. Good idea about FSF - given that it >> is what they deal with day in, day out. >> >> Bo Gusman wrote: >> >>> A couple of points not otherwise mentioned. >>> >>> First, contact the FSF for some authorative help. They can point you >>> to legal experts who will have answers. >>> >>> Second, IMHO, so long as you are only extracting data that the >>> customer owns and are not making use of the internal structures of >>> the DB as provided by Goliath, your exposure should be minimal. >>> >>> Last, when all else fails, provide a means to import data in a format >>> that has been manually exported using Goliath's tools. It is the >>> customer's absolute right to have access to their data, regardless of >>> any license scheme imposed by a third party. Imagine the world we >>> would live in if such were not the case. >>> >>> Bo >>> >>> Frank Rizzo wrote: >>> >>>> Thank you for your answer. Just to clarify a couple of things, the >>>> agreement to exchange data with the competitor is unlikely to happen >>>> since he is the goliath and I am david (in our business). Secondly, >>>> as far as trying to locate a lawyer, I am unable to find one >>>> specializing in these matters. All the generic lawyers I talked to >>>> all say "don't do it".
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