CMM wrote:

> Do the developers of Visual 2005 actuall use it??? There's lots of great
> things in VS2005 (mostly related to the outstanding work done on the CLR)...
> but in general the LITTLE THINGS totally drag it down.. especially the
> slightly-improved-but-not-all-that-much IDE. I waited for 3 years for this?
> Who's in charge of this mess?

"CMM" <cmm@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:Or%2374aUJGHA.3408@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl...
> Do the developers of Visual 2005 actuall use it??? There's lots of great
> things in VS2005 (mostly related to the outstanding work done on the
> CLR)... but in general the LITTLE THINGS totally drag it down.. especially
> the slightly-improved-but-not-all-that-much IDE. I waited for 3 years for
> this? Who's in charge of this mess?

"Robin" <Robin@.com> wrote in message
news:OBY%23K9UJGHA.216@TK2MSFTNGP15.phx.gbl...
> PJ6 wrote:
>> Don't use the designer. Storing HTML in written form is as misguided as
>> hard-coding SQL into an executable. Keep all data in a database... yes,
>> all content. Use the object model to serve it, don't store a single line
>> of hard HTML code.
>
> Wow. Just, wow.
>
>> I know that might sound really radical.
>
> Yup!
>
>> But oh does it work well, especially for supporting multiple languages.
>
> Sounds like it. Out of interest, where do you suggest to keep the SQL?

"Jon Shemitz" <jon@midnightbeach.com> wrote in message
news:43DD8E86.6A81DABF@midnightbeach.com...
> CMM wrote:
>
>> Do the developers of Visual 2005 actuall use it??? There's lots of great
>> things in VS2005 (mostly related to the outstanding work done on the
>> CLR)...
>> but in general the LITTLE THINGS totally drag it down.. especially the
>> slightly-improved-but-not-all-that-much IDE. I waited for 3 years for
>> this?
>> Who's in charge of this mess?
>
> Takes all kinds. I love VS.2005 - especially the menus that offer to
> write stubs to implement interfaces implicitly (public methods) or
> explicitly, the menus that offer to qualify names or add a using
> statement, the menus that can generate the prototype for a method that
> you've used before defining it. The autoformatter is improved, too, as
> is toolwindow dragging. Intellisense seems cleverer, too.
>
> --
> <http://www.midnightbeach.com>

PJ6 wrote:
> Don't use the designer. Storing HTML in written form is as misguided as
> hard-coding SQL into an executable. Keep all data in a database... yes, all
> content. Use the object model to serve it, don't store a single line of hard
> HTML code.

> I know that might sound really radical.

> But oh does it work well, especially for supporting multiple languages.

"CMM" <cmm@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:Or%2374aUJGHA.3408@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl...
> Do the developers of Visual 2005 actuall use it??? There's lots of great
> things in VS2005 (mostly related to the outstanding work done on the
CLR)...
> but in general the LITTLE THINGS totally drag it down.. especially the
> slightly-improved-but-not-all-that-much IDE. I waited for 3 years for
this?
> Who's in charge of this mess?
>
> 1)
> Editing a web form in the designer... I think I'm totally misunderstanding
> the usage of CSS stylesheets and classes. Why can't I pick from a CSS
style
> in the CssClass property in the property window? I can manually enter a
> style and it'll work... but there's no "dropdown" to select one. I have to
> remember the names of all the styles in my stylesheet? That's not very
> helpful. Am I doing something wrong?
>
> 2)
> Also, CSS styles in the linked stylesheet also don't show up in the "Block
> Format" dropdown in the toolbar. I think they should... am I wrong?
> Furthermore, why can't I link (via the Property Editor) to multiple
> stylesheets. HTML supports this and it is used often... why doesn't the
> designer support this? I know I can drop to the source editor and add them
> to the HEAD section manually but this is also not very helpful in the
grand
> scheme of things. No wonder Visual Studio 2005 defaults to showing you the
> source HTML/ASP tags.... because it's visual web form editor plain sucks.
>
> 3)
> Why doesn't the ClassKey property in the Expressions window show resource
> files that are in App_GlobalResources??? You have to manually type in the
> name of the resource file. Not only that, but even if you type in the name
> of the resource file, you still have to manually give it the the name of
the
> resourse string!!!???? Why no dropdown? Not only that, but if you go back
> into it, then a list of resource keys DO show up? Amazing! This is a flat
> out bug... not a missing feature or a misunderstanding of the developer's
> intent. Whatever programmer was in charge of this feature simply went to
> sleep on it.
>
> I understand that it works better if you have a resource file for EACH web
> form... because then the Expressions Editor doesn't act so STUPID. But,
this
> is unnacceptable. The implementation of Globalization via Resource files
in
> the ASP Web Forms designer is HORRID.
>
> 4)
> Is it me or does intellisense behave weird in the Immediate Window? When
I'm
> in debug mode and I go to the Immediate window and type ? System. no
> intellisense after the period! But if I hit enter after typeing ? system
(I
> get an error of course) but then after that typing ? System. does trigger
> intellisense and I'm shown all the stuff in the System namespace. Huh?
>
> 5)
> F1 is unpredictable. It doesn't work from the immediate window It doesn't
> really work from the Property Editor. It works OK from source code... but
> then it gets confused if you have nested parethesis and such. It took me
> forever to realize that I should NOT select an entire word and hit F1...
> that this instead does a "generic" search instead of the actual TYPE of
the
> variable or keyword selected. Not highligting the word does cause F1 to
> behave as you would expect and it zeroes in exactly on the keyword or
> function it should in the Help files. I don't dislike this behavior...
but,
> I was confused by it at first.
>
> 6)
> Don't even get me started on why VS2005 INSISTS on creating an EMPTY
UNUSED
> subfolder every time it starts in my My Documents folder even though I
have
> changed all its paths elsewhere.
>
> 7)
> Import/Export settings is a cool idea (actually stolen from good ol'
Visual
> Interdev about 7 years late). But badly implemented. I would prefer to see
a
> drop down or menu somewhere where I can easily change "Environment
Settings"
> without worrying about saving, switching around physical files, or playing
> musical chairs. Something like View | Environment -> C#, VB, Custom,
Define
> Views (similar to the way Outlook does "Views.")
>
>

CMM wrote:
> 1)
> Editing a web form in the designer... I think I'm totally misunderstanding
> the usage of CSS stylesheets and classes. Why can't I pick from a CSS style
> in the CssClass property in the property window? I can manually enter a
> style and it'll work... but there's no "dropdown" to select one. I have to
> remember the names of all the styles in my stylesheet? That's not very
> helpful. Am I doing something wrong?

>
> 2)
> Also, CSS styles in the linked stylesheet also don't show up in the "Block
> Format" dropdown in the toolbar. I think they should... am I wrong?
> Furthermore, why can't I link (via the Property Editor) to multiple
> stylesheets. HTML supports this and it is used often... why doesn't the
> designer support this? I know I can drop to the source editor and add them
> to the HEAD section manually but this is also not very helpful in the grand
> scheme of things. No wonder Visual Studio 2005 defaults to showing you the
> source HTML/ASP tags.... because it's visual web form editor plain sucks.
>

> 3)
> Why doesn't the ClassKey property in the Expressions window show resource
> files that are in App_GlobalResources??? You have to manually type in the
> name of the resource file. Not only that, but even if you type in the name
> of the resource file, you still have to manually give it the the name of the
> resourse string!!!???? Why no dropdown? Not only that, but if you go back
> into it, then a list of resource keys DO show up? Amazing! This is a flat
> out bug... not a missing feature or a misunderstanding of the developer's
> intent. Whatever programmer was in charge of this feature simply went to
> sleep on it.
>
> I understand that it works better if you have a resource file for EACH web
> form... because then the Expressions Editor doesn't act so STUPID. But, this
> is unnacceptable. The implementation of Globalization via Resource files in
> the ASP Web Forms designer is HORRID.
>

> 4)
> Is it me or does intellisense behave weird in the Immediate Window? When I'm
> in debug mode and I go to the Immediate window and type ? System. no
> intellisense after the period! But if I hit enter after typeing ? system (I
> get an error of course) but then after that typing ? System. does trigger
> intellisense and I'm shown all the stuff in the System namespace. Huh?
>

> 5)
> F1 is unpredictable. It doesn't work from the immediate window It doesn't
> really work from the Property Editor. It works OK from source code... but
> then it gets confused if you have nested parethesis and such. It took me
> forever to realize that I should NOT select an entire word and hit F1...
> that this instead does a "generic" search instead of the actual TYPE of the
> variable or keyword selected. Not highligting the word does cause F1 to
> behave as you would expect and it zeroes in exactly on the keyword or
> function it should in the Help files. I don't dislike this behavior... but,
> I was confused by it at first.
>

> 6)
> Don't even get me started on why VS2005 INSISTS on creating an EMPTY UNUSED
> subfolder every time it starts in my My Documents folder even though I have
> changed all its paths elsewhere.
>

> 7)
> Import/Export settings is a cool idea (actually stolen from good ol' Visual
> Interdev about 7 years late). But badly implemented. I would prefer to see a
> drop down or menu somewhere where I can easily change "Environment Settings"
> without worrying about saving, switching around physical files, or playing
> musical chairs. Something like View | Environment -> C#, VB, Custom, Define
> Views (similar to the way Outlook does "Views.")
>
>

"john smith" <john@smith.com> wrote in message
news:uS2H$6YJGHA.3896@TK2MSFTNGP15.phx.gbl...
> CMM wrote:
>> 1)
>> Editing a web form in the designer... I think I'm totally
>> misunderstanding the usage of CSS stylesheets and classes. Why can't I
>> pick from a CSS style in the CssClass property in the property window? I
>> can manually enter a style and it'll work... but there's no "dropdown" to
>> select one. I have to remember the names of all the styles in my
>> stylesheet? That's not very helpful. Am I doing something wrong?
>
> It's not exactly easy for VS to know what CSS classes you have, it would
> have to spider the current page (and all of it's includes, the master
> page, etc - more could even be added programmatically/at runtime...), then
> it would have to make a list of all the classes from these files. From
> that you'd have a list with hundreds of classes in a tiny drop down... Not
> useful one bit. Or perhaps it would have to do filtering on the entities
> to see what could apply to whatever you're styling (that would be
> complicated, not so reliable, and would make the IDE super slow, yet still
> list hundreds of classes in a tiny dropdown).

>
>>
>> 2)
>> Also, CSS styles in the linked stylesheet also don't show up in the
>> "Block Format" dropdown in the toolbar. I think they should... am I
>> wrong? Furthermore, why can't I link (via the Property Editor) to
>> multiple stylesheets. HTML supports this and it is used often... why
>> doesn't the designer support this? I know I can drop to the source editor
>> and add them to the HEAD section manually but this is also not very
>> helpful in the grand scheme of things. No wonder Visual Studio 2005
>> defaults to showing you the source HTML/ASP tags.... because it's visual
>> web form editor plain sucks.
>>
>
> I don't know really... I always work in source mode no matter what IDE I
> use. Can't stand any of those visual drag n drop things (they're not very
> productive usually either - I see some webmasters spend like 5 seconds
> going thru tool palettes to add a <br /> tag...), I type whatever I want
> in.

>
>> 3)
>> Why doesn't the ClassKey property in the Expressions window show resource
>> files that are in App_GlobalResources??? You have to manually type in the
>> name of the resource file. Not only that, but even if you type in the
>> name of the resource file, you still have to manually give it the the
>> name of the resourse string!!!???? Why no dropdown? Not only that, but if
>> you go back into it, then a list of resource keys DO show up? Amazing!
>> This is a flat out bug... not a missing feature or a misunderstanding of
>> the developer's intent. Whatever programmer was in charge of this feature
>> simply went to sleep on it.
>>
>> I understand that it works better if you have a resource file for EACH
>> web form... because then the Expressions Editor doesn't act so STUPID.
>> But, this is unnacceptable. The implementation of Globalization via
>> Resource files in the ASP Web Forms designer is HORRID.
>>
>
> I haven't really had any issues loading resources. Honestly, I'm quite
> pleased with the localization features (some things are still a pain to
> localize, like javascripts, but markup wise it's easy and works well).
>

>> 4)
>> Is it me or does intellisense behave weird in the Immediate Window? When
>> I'm in debug mode and I go to the Immediate window and type ? System. no
>> intellisense after the period! But if I hit enter after typeing ? system
>> (I get an error of course) but then after that typing ? System. does
>> trigger intellisense and I'm shown all the stuff in the System namespace.
>> Huh?
>>
>
> Intellisense sometimes crashes on me, I'll grant you that :)
>

>> 5)
>> F1 is unpredictable. It doesn't work from the immediate window It doesn't
>> really work from the Property Editor. It works OK from source code... but
>> then it gets confused if you have nested parethesis and such. It took me
>> forever to realize that I should NOT select an entire word and hit F1...
>> that this instead does a "generic" search instead of the actual TYPE of
>> the variable or keyword selected. Not highligting the word does cause F1
>> to behave as you would expect and it zeroes in exactly on the keyword or
>> function it should in the Help files. I don't dislike this behavior...
>> but, I was confused by it at first.
>>
>
> I'm not a very big F1 user, can't really say much here...
>

>> 6)
>> Don't even get me started on why VS2005 INSISTS on creating an EMPTY
>> UNUSED subfolder every time it starts in my My Documents folder even
>> though I have changed all its paths elsewhere.
>>
>
> Hard to say. What's the name?

>
>> 7)
>> Import/Export settings is a cool idea (actually stolen from good ol'
>> Visual Interdev about 7 years late). But badly implemented. I would
>> prefer to see a drop down or menu somewhere where I can easily change
>> "Environment Settings" without worrying about saving, switching around
>> physical files, or playing musical chairs. Something like View |
>> Environment -> C#, VB, Custom, Define Views (similar to the way Outlook
>> does "Views.")
>>
>>
>
> I have no complaints here but I see your point.

"Toff McGowen" <tm@toff.com> wrote in message
news:uFWLYlUJGHA.3896@TK2MSFTNGP15.phx.gbl...
>I suggest you protest this incompetence by only using the command line
>tools
> until VS 2007 is released. That'll show 'em.
>
> :)
>
> tm
>
> "CMM" <cmm@nospam.com> wrote in message
> news:Or%2374aUJGHA.3408@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl...
>> Do the developers of Visual 2005 actuall use it??? There's lots of great
>> things in VS2005 (mostly related to the outstanding work done on the
> CLR)...
>> but in general the LITTLE THINGS totally drag it down.. especially the
>> slightly-improved-but-not-all-that-much IDE. I waited for 3 years for
> this?
>> Who's in charge of this mess?
>>
>> 1)
>> Editing a web form in the designer... I think I'm totally
>> misunderstanding
>> the usage of CSS stylesheets and classes. Why can't I pick from a CSS
> style
>> in the CssClass property in the property window? I can manually enter a
>> style and it'll work... but there's no "dropdown" to select one. I have
>> to
>> remember the names of all the styles in my stylesheet? That's not very
>> helpful. Am I doing something wrong?
>>
>> 2)
>> Also, CSS styles in the linked stylesheet also don't show up in the
>> "Block
>> Format" dropdown in the toolbar. I think they should... am I wrong?
>> Furthermore, why can't I link (via the Property Editor) to multiple
>> stylesheets. HTML supports this and it is used often... why doesn't the
>> designer support this? I know I can drop to the source editor and add
>> them
>> to the HEAD section manually but this is also not very helpful in the
> grand
>> scheme of things. No wonder Visual Studio 2005 defaults to showing you
>> the
>> source HTML/ASP tags.... because it's visual web form editor plain sucks.
>>
>> 3)
>> Why doesn't the ClassKey property in the Expressions window show resource
>> files that are in App_GlobalResources??? You have to manually type in the
>> name of the resource file. Not only that, but even if you type in the
>> name
>> of the resource file, you still have to manually give it the the name of
> the
>> resourse string!!!???? Why no dropdown? Not only that, but if you go back
>> into it, then a list of resource keys DO show up? Amazing! This is a flat
>> out bug... not a missing feature or a misunderstanding of the developer's
>> intent. Whatever programmer was in charge of this feature simply went to
>> sleep on it.
>>
>> I understand that it works better if you have a resource file for EACH
>> web
>> form... because then the Expressions Editor doesn't act so STUPID. But,
> this
>> is unnacceptable. The implementation of Globalization via Resource files
> in
>> the ASP Web Forms designer is HORRID.
>>
>> 4)
>> Is it me or does intellisense behave weird in the Immediate Window? When
> I'm
>> in debug mode and I go to the Immediate window and type ? System. no
>> intellisense after the period! But if I hit enter after typeing ? system
> (I
>> get an error of course) but then after that typing ? System. does trigger
>> intellisense and I'm shown all the stuff in the System namespace. Huh?
>>
>> 5)
>> F1 is unpredictable. It doesn't work from the immediate window It doesn't
>> really work from the Property Editor. It works OK from source code... but
>> then it gets confused if you have nested parethesis and such. It took me
>> forever to realize that I should NOT select an entire word and hit F1...
>> that this instead does a "generic" search instead of the actual TYPE of
> the
>> variable or keyword selected. Not highligting the word does cause F1 to
>> behave as you would expect and it zeroes in exactly on the keyword or
>> function it should in the Help files. I don't dislike this behavior...
> but,
>> I was confused by it at first.
>>
>> 6)
>> Don't even get me started on why VS2005 INSISTS on creating an EMPTY
> UNUSED
>> subfolder every time it starts in my My Documents folder even though I
> have
>> changed all its paths elsewhere.
>>
>> 7)
>> Import/Export settings is a cool idea (actually stolen from good ol'
> Visual
>> Interdev about 7 years late). But badly implemented. I would prefer to
>> see
> a
>> drop down or menu somewhere where I can easily change "Environment
> Settings"
>> without worrying about saving, switching around physical files, or
>> playing
>> musical chairs. Something like View | Environment -> C#, VB, Custom,
> Define
>> Views (similar to the way Outlook does "Views.")
>>
>>
>
>

"PJ6" <nobody@nowhere.net> wrote in message
news:ud$1laVJGHA.3000@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl...
> "Robin" <Robin@.com> wrote in message
> news:OBY%23K9UJGHA.216@TK2MSFTNGP15.phx.gbl...
>> PJ6 wrote:
>>> Don't use the designer. Storing HTML in written form is as misguided as
>>> hard-coding SQL into an executable. Keep all data in a database... yes,
>>> all content. Use the object model to serve it, don't store a single line
>>> of hard HTML code.
>>
>> Wow. Just, wow.
>>
>>> I know that might sound really radical.
>>
>> Yup!
>>
>>> But oh does it work well, especially for supporting multiple languages.
>>
>> Sounds like it. Out of interest, where do you suggest to keep the SQL?
>
> I tag objects that require data access with a special attribute. Stored
> procedures are then automatically generated for them, I use their fully
> qualified assembly names for the naming convention. So all SQL resides
> server-side. It's tremendously convenient because you can alter and debug
> queries on the fly. It also makes all SQL searchable. IMHO this technique
> is essiantial for managing projects with hundreds or thousands of queries.
> SQL is data like anything else and needs to be treated as such.
>
> Paul
>

> Hundreds of thousands of stored queries? Who do you work for? The NSA?

"CMM" <cmm@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:OagK3hWJGHA.312@TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl...
> Sounds like you could write a pattern and practice paper on this or
> publish your techniques as a Framework of some sort.
>
> Hundreds of thousands of stored queries? Who do you work for? The NSA?

> Do the developers of Visual 2005 actuall use it??? There's lots of great
> things in VS2005 (mostly related to the outstanding work done on the
> CLR)... but in general the LITTLE THINGS totally drag it down.. especially
> the slightly-improved-but-not-all-that-much IDE. I waited for 3 years for
> this? Who's in charge of this mess?

"CMM" <cmm@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:Or%2374aUJGHA.3408@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl...
> Do the developers of Visual 2005 actuall use it??? There's lots of great
> things in VS2005 (mostly related to the outstanding work done on the
> CLR)... but in general the LITTLE THINGS totally drag it down.. especially
> the slightly-improved-but-not-all-that-much IDE. I waited for 3 years for
> this? Who's in charge of this mess?
>
> 1)
> Editing a web form in the designer... I think I'm totally misunderstanding
> the usage of CSS stylesheets and classes. Why can't I pick from a CSS
> style in the CssClass property in the property window? I can manually
> enter a style and it'll work... but there's no "dropdown" to select one. I
> have to remember the names of all the styles in my stylesheet? That's not
> very helpful. Am I doing something wrong?
>
> 2)
> Also, CSS styles in the linked stylesheet also don't show up in the "Block
> Format" dropdown in the toolbar. I think they should... am I wrong?
> Furthermore, why can't I link (via the Property Editor) to multiple
> stylesheets. HTML supports this and it is used often... why doesn't the
> designer support this? I know I can drop to the source editor and add them
> to the HEAD section manually but this is also not very helpful in the
> grand scheme of things. No wonder Visual Studio 2005 defaults to showing
> you the source HTML/ASP tags.... because it's visual web form editor plain
> sucks.
>
> 3)
> Why doesn't the ClassKey property in the Expressions window show resource
> files that are in App_GlobalResources??? You have to manually type in the
> name of the resource file. Not only that, but even if you type in the name
> of the resource file, you still have to manually give it the the name of
> the resourse string!!!???? Why no dropdown? Not only that, but if you go
> back into it, then a list of resource keys DO show up? Amazing! This is a
> flat out bug... not a missing feature or a misunderstanding of the
> developer's intent. Whatever programmer was in charge of this feature
> simply went to sleep on it.
>
> I understand that it works better if you have a resource file for EACH web
> form... because then the Expressions Editor doesn't act so STUPID. But,
> this is unnacceptable. The implementation of Globalization via Resource
> files in the ASP Web Forms designer is HORRID.
>
> 4)
> Is it me or does intellisense behave weird in the Immediate Window? When
> I'm in debug mode and I go to the Immediate window and type ? System. no
> intellisense after the period! But if I hit enter after typeing ? system
> (I get an error of course) but then after that typing ? System. does
> trigger intellisense and I'm shown all the stuff in the System namespace.
> Huh?
>
> 5)
> F1 is unpredictable. It doesn't work from the immediate window It doesn't
> really work from the Property Editor. It works OK from source code... but
> then it gets confused if you have nested parethesis and such. It took me
> forever to realize that I should NOT select an entire word and hit F1...
> that this instead does a "generic" search instead of the actual TYPE of
> the variable or keyword selected. Not highligting the word does cause F1
> to behave as you would expect and it zeroes in exactly on the keyword or
> function it should in the Help files. I don't dislike this behavior...
> but, I was confused by it at first.
>
> 6)
> Don't even get me started on why VS2005 INSISTS on creating an EMPTY
> UNUSED subfolder every time it starts in my My Documents folder even
> though I have changed all its paths elsewhere.
>
> 7)
> Import/Export settings is a cool idea (actually stolen from good ol'
> Visual Interdev about 7 years late). But badly implemented. I would prefer
> to see a drop down or menu somewhere where I can easily change
> "Environment Settings" without worrying about saving, switching around
> physical files, or playing musical chairs. Something like View |
> Environment -> C#, VB, Custom, Define Views (similar to the way Outlook
> does "Views.")
>
>

> Do the developers of Visual 2005 actuall use it??? There's lots of great
> things in VS2005 (mostly related to the outstanding work done on the
> CLR)... but in general the LITTLE THINGS totally drag it down.. especially
> the slightly-improved-but-not-all-that-much IDE. I waited for 3 years for
> this? Who's in charge of this mess?

"CMM" <cmm@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:Or%2374aUJGHA.3408@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl...
> Do the developers of Visual 2005 actuall use it???

"Nick Malik [Microsoft]" <nickmalik@hotmail.nospam.com> wrote in message
news:t4idnZpukMXMFkPeRVn-og@comcast.com...
> Just to answer the one question that few others attempted...
>
> "CMM" <cmm@nospam.com> wrote in message
> news:Or%2374aUJGHA.3408@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl...
>> Do the developers of Visual 2005 actuall use it???
>
> Yes. Every iteration... Even the really raw unfinished versions.
>
> They lived every bug. They worked with the tool to build the tool. It is
> part of the Microsoft philosophy: be your own first and most-demanding
> customer. Long before it was released, other groups were using this tool
> to build other apps and products.
>
> Even the Microsoft internal IT groups used the beta versions, and provided
> feedback, in order to improve the tool before it was released.
>
>
> --
> --- Nick Malik [Microsoft]
> MCSD, CFPS, Certified Scrummaster
> http://blogs.msdn.com/nickmalik
>
> Disclaimer: Opinions expressed in this forum are my own, and not
> representative of my employer.
> I do not answer questions on behalf of my employer. I'm just a
> programmer helping programmers.
> --
>
>

> Nick Malik [Microsoft] wrote:
>
>> Just to answer the one question that few others attempted...
>>
>> "CMM" <cmm@nospam.com> wrote in message
>> news:Or%2374aUJGHA.3408@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl...
>> > Do the developers of Visual 2005 actuall use it???
>>
>> Yes. Every iteration... Even the really raw unfinished versions.
>>
>> They lived every bug. They worked with the tool to build the tool.
>> It is part of the Microsoft philosophy: be your own first and
>> most-demanding customer. Long before it was released, other groups
>> were using this tool to build other apps and products.
>>
>> Even the Microsoft internal IT groups used the beta versions, and
>> provided feedback, in order to improve the tool before it was
>> released.
>
> While I know MS employees 'dogfood' their own products, I can't
> understand why these same MS employees accept silly things, like really
> tiny windows you can't resize and in which you have to scroll a lot.
>
> Or the silly new search/replace dialog which lacks a close button and
> has an action button on the spot where you would expect a close button.
> Every time I have to stop myself clicking that darn button. Very
> annoying, and because it's annoying, I then wonder: am I the only
> person who thinks that's annoying, and if not, why didn't any MS
> employee shoot an email to the dev group asking for an explanation why
> it's not setup properly?
>
> FB
>
> --
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Get LLBLGen Pro, productive O/R mapping for .NET: http://www.llblgen.com
> My .NET blog: http://weblogs.asp.net/fbouma
> Microsoft MVP (C#)
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

Nick Malik [Microsoft] wrote:

> Just to answer the one question that few others attempted...
>
> "CMM" <cmm@nospam.com> wrote in message
> news:Or%2374aUJGHA.3408@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl...
> > Do the developers of Visual 2005 actuall use it???
>
> Yes. Every iteration... Even the really raw unfinished versions.
>
> They lived every bug. They worked with the tool to build the tool.
> It is part of the Microsoft philosophy: be your own first and
> most-demanding customer. Long before it was released, other groups
> were using this tool to build other apps and products.
>
> Even the Microsoft internal IT groups used the beta versions, and
> provided feedback, in order to improve the tool before it was
> released.

> has an action button on the spot where you would expect a close button.
> Every time I have to stop myself clicking that darn button. Very
> annoying, and because it's annoying, I then wonder: am I the only
> person who thinks that's annoying, and if not, why didn't any MS
> employee shoot an email to the dev group asking for an explanation why
> it's not setup properly?

"Frans Bouma [C# MVP]" <perseus.usenetNOSPAM@xs4all.nl> wrote in message
news:xn0ehvxo18cvwh001@news.microsoft.com...
> Nick Malik [Microsoft] wrote:
>
>> Just to answer the one question that few others attempted...
>>
>> "CMM" <cmm@nospam.com> wrote in message
>> news:Or%2374aUJGHA.3408@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl...
>> > Do the developers of Visual 2005 actuall use it???
>>
>> Yes. Every iteration... Even the really raw unfinished versions.
>>
>> They lived every bug. They worked with the tool to build the tool.
>> It is part of the Microsoft philosophy: be your own first and
>> most-demanding customer. Long before it was released, other groups
>> were using this tool to build other apps and products.
>>
>> Even the Microsoft internal IT groups used the beta versions, and
>> provided feedback, in order to improve the tool before it was
>> released.
>
> While I know MS employees 'dogfood' their own products, I can't
> understand why these same MS employees accept silly things, like really
> tiny windows you can't resize and in which you have to scroll a lot.
>
> Or the silly new search/replace dialog which lacks a close button and
> has an action button on the spot where you would expect a close button.
> Every time I have to stop myself clicking that darn button. Very
> annoying, and because it's annoying, I then wonder: am I the only
> person who thinks that's annoying, and if not, why didn't any MS
> employee shoot an email to the dev group asking for an explanation why
> it's not setup properly?
>
> FB
>
> --
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Get LLBLGen Pro, productive O/R mapping for .NET: http://www.llblgen.com
> My .NET blog: http://weblogs.asp.net/fbouma
> Microsoft MVP (C#)
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------