Very upset about this - the flash downlaod page should be for flash only - and
not the yahoo toolbar. Please please please - idealy - REMOVE the yahoo
toolbar - if this is not possable then make the default selection for flash
player only. This is WRONG having this toolbar on the player download, as a
flash developer I am developing and promoting FLASH not YAHOO. I am very upset
that Macromedia would stoop so low as to promote Yahoo through the 'back door'.
How many customers i know who simply dont read download peages fully and would
install the toolbar unknowingly.... This is not on period. And I bet Yahoo pay
a hansome sum for you to include the toolbar in the first place! And this aside
you are doubling the default download size.

for what it is worth, I agree 100%... if the yahoo bar is what they want, it
should be the option and not the default when you pull up the download page.
I am totally disappointed.


--
Dan Mode
http://d-mode.ww.com
more to come later
[quoted text, click to view]

right - it would work much better if the yahoo download was not the default
selection.

I also use the google toolbar - the yahoo one is far too cumbersome. On
many of my sites I am trying to check for Flash 6 or 7 and redirect to
inform users to download the latest version - I wish there was a better
solution with this yahoo rubbish....perhaps a site just for webdev geeks to
direct their clients.

I hope that this yahoo thing goes away. Anyone know whom I could direct
these comments to so that we can get rid of it?


--
Dan Mode
http://d-mode.ww.com
more to come later


[quoted text, click to view]

[quoted text, click to view]

Not flash player but I believe it is ShockWave Player ?
Shockwave as Director not Flash files.
True is , forcing junk from other companies is not nice but you know
the corporate world is full of cronies and all this other crap.



--
Regards

Urami

--


<valent>
http://www.flashfugitive.com/ang-zhang/valent/
</valent>

<urami>
http://www.Flashfugitive.com
</urami>

<web junk free>
http://www.firefox.com

I think it is an option because when you download it at the bottom of the
window is a check box i think saying do you want to download the yahoo toolbar.
I hate yahoo i bhave the google toolbar which is much better any way. I did
that same mistike with the yahoo toolbar i got very very angry

If MACR spent as much time listenening to their customers as they spend
listening to their gym-buff boys and lacquer-nailed girls in their marketing
department, this sort of thing would never happen. That, and if their
management spent some time seeking those with a talent for simplicity that
true engineering genius has, their products would sell themselves, and they
wouldn't have to stoop to this sort of thing.

After all, you don't see IBM offering the YAHOO toolbar with their latest
supercomputer, do you? No. Does Sun Microsystems offer a toolbar with their
latest JAVA release? No. Does Microsoft include the YAHOO toolbar with their
latest dot-NET release? No.

Their products stand above, beyond, and distinct from the YAHOO toolbar.
Apparently, MACR's player doesn't, and needs a little help from YAHOO. I'm
reminded of the days when MACR actually had banner adds on their web
pages...sheesh, always thought that weird, sort of like McDonalds featuring
an ad for Wendy's restaurant, just in case you didn't like McDonald's food.

The shame is, if MACR had actually delivered on Flash 7, this sort of thing
(even if it was only for the gasping Director universe) would be beneath
them. They would have more market than they could deal with. I know I'm
delivering "Industrial Strength" product continuously, but it's in Flash 6,
not 7. My days and weeks are booked--I hardly get any time off just keeping
up with the demand for Flash 6 product, not 7. Wonder why not 7?

Perhaps I should offer a free YAHOO toolbar with my Flash 7 work? Think that
might make it pick up a bit? Would it turn Flash 7 from Zero to Hero?

Hmmm, maybe those gym-buff boys and lacquer-nailed girls in MACR's marketing
department know more than I do? Maybe there is something to be learned
professionally from those bench-pressing, dipilitating waxing, and
powerpoint sessions?

I'll have to think on that angle....

Meanwhile, let's turn back to page 6....page 7 is soiled and
unreadable.....and please apply your popup blocker....




[quoted text, click to view]

But wait, there's more. Perhaps they should offer a free subscription to
"READERS DIGEST" magazine with the download, as well as an unlimited supply
of spam from Nigerians who are "in the know" and "connected to" this or that
dictator who fled the country with millions that, if we only sent $25 to
them, they would cut us in on a major part of a million $$$?

Maybe I should apply for a job in their marketing department?

Rob,
excellent points and I agree with you - makes no sense to me why they would
do this. I'll have to re-think all my sites and stop pushing for flash 7.
I downloaded both of them on a different computer: Flash 7 with Yahoo
toolbar and Flash 7 without. The version with the toolbar takes about
double the download time.

When people are told that they need to update their Flash player in order to
see a webpage properly and then see that stupid Yahoo toolbar - I can
guarantee that they are not happy. I had some other users in my office go
in and update their player to version 7 - they told me that when they saw
this Yahoo thing come up they were turned off but only went ahead with the
upgrade because I told them to do so. Now, I asked them if they had have
been just surfing the net and saw a notice to upgrade - then saw this yahoo
thing come up - would they have still upgraded...each one of them said,
'probably not...' or 'no'.

I rest my case...this needs to go away MM. I want to push people to v. 7
but won't with the yahoo on there. Who can I email? Anyone have a feedback
url?


--
Dan Mode
http://d-mode.ww.com
more to come later
[quoted text, click to view]

what is the email address?


--

Dan
blah blah regla de las firmas de la longitud
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(ahhh...vanity)
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__
[quoted text, click to view]

very valid argument

--

Dan
blah blah regla de las firmas de la longitud
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[quoted text, click to view]

Well thanks for your support guys - i have contacted macro directly by way of a
support email.... Thank you for contacting Macromedia. This is an automatic
confirmation of your e-mail to us. We received your information on 2/18/2005 at
9:55:55 PM PST. Please do not respond to this message. Still no reply - do
your bit and email them too perhaps we can halt this madening decision before
it gets worse!

I dont know the email address - however i used the support contact forms on these pages and submitted my questions there -

Adobe do the yahoo toolbar with there acrobat Reader 7 now cause i downloaded
it the other day and ithad it there and i way annoyed. But yahoo must pay alot
to advertise it. They probley want to get better than google which in my eyes
is the bets and will always be the best :)

The point is - we pay for the flash authouring tool, and to create movies - as
part of the deal macromedia provide our customers with the plugin so they can
view our published content... Now i dont remember requesting that my customers
or viewers of my carefully crafted flash material should have to put up with
having junk added to their browser when they install the plugin. I think there
must be a case there somewhere - i feel let down and cheated over the 5 years
of development support i have given for flash applications. I have developed
feeling happy that MMED is an honest and transparent company - but by adding
this toolbar i feel they are profitearing from my efforts with out my consent
and are abusing the public who download the plugin which is supposed to be free
and end up getting advertised to and no doubt lining MMEDS pockets.... need i
say more!

On 2005-02-18 21:47:55 -0800, "norbit" <cel@web-engineer.co.uk> said:

[quoted text, click to view]

I agree! This is the most absurd move I've seen Macromedia make yet.
It's not enough that they release extremely buggy software and put off
critical bugs until "next full version release" but now they are
bundling a toolbar by default with their player?

The worst move ever and there goes the high Flash player penetration
and adoption rates. I'm very disappointed, but not at all surprised.
--
{ timberfish }
{ www.grassapple.com }

they need to just get rid of it
IMO - just like one of those 'hidden' apps when you download. People are
not going to the Flash Player download site to get the Yahoo toolbar. They
are going to get the Player. Needs to be removed.


--

Dan
blah blah lengthy signatures rule
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[quoted text, click to view]

Christian,
when you use the detection kit - it prompts the user to click the button or
link to get the latest version which redirects to MM flash/yahoo toolbar
download page. Same result. Yes, only with certain versions of IE but it
is the latest versions or IE.



--

Dan
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[quoted text, click to view]

bad business anyway you look at it... make your customers mad at you as well
as your associates. C'mon, take the thing off.


--

Dan
blah blah lengthy signatures rule
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here is the reply I got from MM:

Macromedia is simply offering their Yahoo toolbar as an option to any

customer running Microsoft Internet Explorer for Windows who do not

already have the Yahoo! Toolbar installed. If all you really want is

Macromedia Flash Player, you are not required to install Yahoo! Toolbar.


why then with Flash Player?????

Give me a break. There is one reason and ONLY one reason you are doing this
and that is to make money. That is lame. I know you are not "requiring" that
the toolbar be downloaded. But just having that option (and especially
having it SELECTED) cheapens your project so much! Don't you see that? As an
avid Flash designer, I am now embarrassed to link to your download page
because I feel like I am linking users to some spamware site.
--

Dan
blah blah lengthy signatures rule
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(ahhh...vanity)
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[quoted text, click to view]

how much do I have to pay you to take the yahoo thing off?

--

Dan
blah blah lengthy signatures rule
*NEW* check me out http://d-mode.ww.com
(ahhh...vanity)
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[quoted text, click to view]

well I for one am not pimping it....

--

Dan
blah blah lengthy signatures rule
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[quoted text, click to view]

Finally got a responce from MMED - see the below - the good thing is they
mentioned they are passing this on to the correct department, if we want to
make a differance then please send you feedback to macromedia support via the
previously mentioned links. Hopefully they will listen to the sound of reason,
afterall I dont relish the fact that I may have to look for an alternative to
flash if this continues.... Yahoo today, Reders Digest tomorrow.... Firstly,
please accept our sincere apologies for the delay in responding to your email
of 19/02/2005. Yahoo! and Macromedia are working together with the combined
goal of providing great user experiences to our customers. This includes
projects such as enabling customers to take advantage of the Yahoo! Toolbar and
promoting the development of great, compelling content with the wide range of
Macromedia products. Customers who do not wish to take advantage of this offer
can easily opt-out of the installation. You can find further information
regarding this toolbar at the link below
http://www.macromedia.com/software/flashplayer/productinfo/faq/#item-4-1
However we have sent now your feedback to appropriate department in Macromedia
for further consideration. If you have any further queries, please do not
hesitate to contact us again. Kind regards

i think that if you whant the tool bar then go on the page rather then have it download with flash

our point is that it shoulnt be 'checked' by default, when you subscribe to a
site or service you usually have the option to opt into future mailings, i
think in the case of YAHOO this should be dealt with in the same way - as you
visited the page for the flash player not the YAHOO toolbar! If they choose to
advertise on that page then the user has an option to select it, rahter than
having it selected for them before they end up downloading it without
realising...

An even better place to send feedback like this is through the Macromedia
Feature Request/Bug Report Form: http://www.macromedia.com/go/wish Sometime
stuff like this that gets sent to support is not routed in the most efficient
manner (as you discovered) because it's not so much a support issue as it is
general feedback. Anyway, I am also making sure this feedback goes right to
the product teams. As soon as I get done posting this, I will summarize this
thread and pass it along internally. I also wanted to respond to a few other
comments: 1. The Yahoo! offer is only made to people who download the Flash
Player from the Macromedia download page which represents only a tiny
percentage of all downloads and installations. The huge majority of
installations occur seamlessly without the user having to visit Macromedia's
site. 2. The offer is only made to people using certain versions of IE, and
only on Windows, which further narrows the audience. 3. If you don't want your
users to be exposed to the Yahoo! offer, there are two things you can do.
First, if you use properly formatted object/embed tags, IE users on Windows
should be automatically prompted to download and install the Flash Player
seamlessly. Second, you can use the Flash Detection Kit which is available for
free here: http://www.macromedia.com/software/flash/download/detection_kit/
Feel free to email me personally with any other concerns
(cantrell@macromedia.com), or submit them through the URL above. And again,
you can be sure this feedback will get to the right people. Thanks, Christian

A responce to your points - c.cantrell 1. The Yahoo! offer is only made to
people who download the Flash Player from the Macromedia download page which
represents only a tiny percentage of all downloads and installations. The huge
majority of installations occur seamlessly without the user having to visit
Macromedia's site. I have not seen flash seemlessly update in a long time, and
90% of the sites we produce include flash version detection which provided non
flash versions if they dont have the plugin - giving a link to download the
flash player - AKA as the detection kit does. I will test by uninstalling flash
completely then see what happens also. 2. The offer is only made to people
using certain versions of IE, and only on Windows, which further narrows the
audience. Most people run the latest version of IE since windows updates were
introduced, so this meand most windows users, which means most of the 90% of
the market share using windows.... 3. If you don't want your users to be
exposed to the Yahoo! offer, there are two things you can do. First, if you use
properly formatted object/embed tags, IE users on Windows should be
automatically prompted to download and install the Flash Player seamlessly.
Second, you can use the Flash Detection Kit which is available for free here:
Flash detection kit does not create a seemless download situation, your
'seemless' download i think is when they have a proper version installed, not
on a 'virgin' browser. Anyway - these point do not satisfy the argument that
if macromedia choose to add YAHOO to the download offering it should be an
option the user can choose to add, not added automatically.... the reders
digest point above rings true... and its not fair on us as developers, when we
expect the plugin download page to be for the plugin - and pulgin alone. To
put into context further as regards un-wanted browser junk, the number of times
i have had to fix a machine for friends and relatives thats on its last legs
due to the mountain of installed browser search bars and widgets - this
software is a complete nucience, if MM choose to add it to the download page
then UNCHECK the box by default and let the user decide to add it! Thanks for
the advice about the correct channel to send this kind of info to, will
remember that next time - apologies if i sound like i am starting to rant, but
this gets my back up when these kind of tactics are used.... shame adobe are
doing the same, but at least there are alternative PDF readers around...

Does anyone else think it's weird that MM is pushing the Yahoo Toolbar with
their Flash Player when MM itself uses Google? Look at the bottom of any MM
page and you will find 'Search powered by Google'.

Nice one for putting your thoughts to MMED, i have another grievence now as i
am getting hassle now from our customers who have purchased flash soloutions
for their sites - read the following - We tell our customers there is no
problem using flash - and the plugin is easy to install - then we get a load of
**** when our customers phone up compliaining that they have un-wanted toolbars
on their browser.... This is a potential support crisis issue! Most peple will
not read the page properly so this is not giving them a choice! Make it
selected by default - to my eyes this makes it the default with the average
internet user... UNCHECK the box MM

Here is another valid point.... If we were aloud to distribute the palyer or
provide mirrors (which i would happily do) without this YAHOO obsenity, then MM
would suffer a reduced server load and our customers could download what they
need without marketing forces getting ther oar in.... but if you read the
small print - we are not permitted to provide a download for the player from
our own sites.... sort it out MM - think about it - you can work with the
community or abuse our trust - if the latter is true then you can gaurintee
when an alternative arrives you wont see 90% of you developers for dust.....

A few points of annoyance... MM gets great leverage out of promoting that
there are x million Flash developers out there. Adds enormous confidence to big
corporate operators about the stability and ubiquity of Flash as a web
standard. The whole lot of us have now become de facto Yahoo salespeople.
It's either entrapment of we developers, prostitution of Macromedia's good
name, or both. Another point, we shouldn't have to find technical workarounds
to avoid the Yahoo toolbar, as discussed earlier in the forum. We just
shouldn't have to put up with it. Very annoying when one notes the number of
times we've heard MM give the backslapping of Flash developers and saying how
they couldn't have done it without us!

dont forget to send your views to -
http://www.macromedia.com/go/wish

Just checked out your point re:Adobe soiling themseves with YAHOO, and found
this on download.com - not the highlighted download size, and the fact they
include a wad of other rubbish aswell - Go on MM - dump the junk and keep the
surfers happy with a no non-sence plugin approach! It would earn a load more
respect from your users.... Editor's Note: This program is a download manager
that will trigger a larger, 27MB download. Bundled programs include Yahoo
Toolbar with Anti-Spy and Adobe Photoshop Album Starter Edition. During
installation, you may choose not to install these programs by refusing to
accept their license agreements. Adobe Acrobat Reader will still install.
taken from download.com dont know if this is the same as the official version
- however at least with pdf you can choose a different reader!

Right - checked the download page today being that its been a while, and the
YAHOO obsenity is still checked by default. As a boycot we are no longer going
to push people to 'NO-FLASH' pages to force them download the plugin before
viewing our new sites until this is changed. From now non flash alternate
content will be provided on all new our sites without referance to the plugin.
Despite loving the flash technology I can-not and will-not promote YAHOO as I
did not remember buying 'Macromedia Studio YAHOO MX Professional'

make sure you submitt your feelings here:

http://www.macromedia.com/go/wish

--

Dan
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[quoted text, click to view]

submit something here:
http://www.macromedia.com/go/wish


--

Dan
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[quoted text, click to view]

Thanks Christian but there is one more:

4. Switch to another technology to build your web apps.

As a business I can NOT afford even the slightest chance of alienating my
customer base. With all of the marketing scams, adware, malware, spyware,
etc., people are scared. When they see something piggy-backing on a download,
they are likely to cancel. If they don?t see it and it?s installed, they get
upset with me because they perceive my application as the cause of the unwanted
software. I don?t want to be associated with 3rd part marketing software.
Plus, what promise from Macromedia do I have that the next version won't even
get more obnoxious? Doesn't it make since to switch to something else? People
can dl the JVM with out fear. This is why my company is switching to Java.

For the record I'm also unhappy about the Yahoo option. I'm trying to use
Macromedia products to GET customers - not confuse them, turn them off or turn
them away. Make the Flash plugin option as painless, quick and confusion free
as you can please. Some of us here are from other forums where there are many
professionals and enthusiasts sharing these sentiments. Flash is cool - it
needn't be cheap.

For those subscribed to this thread there are many others who are supporting
the get rid of YAHOO stance. See the following thread on slashdot -
http://developers.slashdot.org/developers/05/03/03/2343207.shtml?tid=156&amp;tid
=95 thanks to the Newsgroup user who posted this in another thread...

I wanted to add my $0.02 as this issue raises some very problematic issues for
me and the company for which I work.

Macromedia's decision to begin cross-bundling and cross-marketing is going to
make it harder for us to sell Flash-based solutions to our clients. Thus, we
will begin to turn away from using/promoting/selling Flash for our clients.

I love Flash and the capabilities it provides. But Macromedia is going to
kill this great product if they dilute its brand with that of other companies.
It's only going to take a couple phone calls from end users who complain about
the "malware" they think has been installed on their computers, and no, it
doesn't matter if there's another option, they shouldn't have kept the box
checked, etc. -- all they will understand is that their computer now has this
extra unwanted thing, and the reason was due to Flash.

Even worse will be trying to talk around clients who have heard that "Flash
installs a bunch of extra stuff" and are now Flash-adverse because of it.

Perception is what matters here, and part of Flash's great success is its
user-friendliness, ease of installation and use, and the idea that Flash is a
"trusted component" that won't screw up your computer.

Macromedia: You're undoubtedly making some money off this deal. You need to
ask yourself how much losing the trust of your customers and end users is
worth. This is a very bad decision that affects in a negative way how I'm
going to be selling and promoting Flash-based solutions (or not).

I work as a web producer for a large company recently developing a flash
application with remoting. It's been excellent. We have a substantial client
base, and the app is doing well (we're releasing it in stages). However, we
didn't expect this. Now, my team is investigating AJAX techniques coupled with
standard J2EE development processes as an immediate replacement for the app.
We can swallow the licensing fee for the Remoting app - it's not as bad as the
scenario where our common, non tech savvy Windows XP Internet Explorer equipped
users are flooding our call center with questions about the Yahoo Toolbar that
has mysteriously been installed with their application. And why our company is
now supporting Yahoo. And why weren't they informed about it. You get the
picture. And to add insult to injury - why did you make the toolbar the
default selection for the install? Dumb, guys. Really, really dumb. You
totally blew off your user base and your developer base in one swoop. I
understand and appreciate that you're in this as a business first, and the
bottom line counts most. But holy cow...can't your business development team
show a bit more creativity than bundling some completely unrelated third party
app with your own? (Pink slips for all of 'em, I say! Go out to the
universities and recruit a little. Jeez...I'm embarrassed for you.) My
recommendation to my company can be no other than to avoid the flash player
from this point forward and to seek alternative delivery methods. You guys
violated our trust big time. Silly.

I think it's time we take stock of where we are on this issue. We are past the
point where MM removing the toolbar bundle can fix the situation.

My trust in MM and in their judgment is severely shaken. My ability to make
the case to my organization for using flash is decimated. I imagine others are
in the same situation.

At this point, even totally removing the toolbar bundle would not enable me to
trust or get others to trust in Flash & MM. The jig is simply up. Just like
that. In the space of a few days MM took themselves out of a market position
almost every other company in the world can only dream of obtaining. Business
classes will be studying MM's decision for years to come. Jaw-dropping amazing
that this could have happened.

Cant believe i am saying this - but 5 years of developing at the highest level
in flash - and now out of principle i have no choice but to look at any
possable aternatives first on future projects.... I am soo anoyed still - but
lets face it flash 4 is no more complex than SVG - how quick did it get to 7,
and end of the day - there are pleanty of other technologies that could end up
taking the lead - so why o why to MM destroy what had previously been a great
relationship between developer, public and inventor....

Now i am realy mad!!!! Its not only flash player that has been soiled with the
YAHOO toolbar - so has the shockwave player... My 6yr old was using CBEEBIES -
and inavertanly was asked to install shockwave - which i didnt mind, then low
and behod the flamin toolbar comes up (seleceted by default) as a parimiter to
the install!!!!!! How on earth can we trust MM again - this is beyond a joke -
i firmly recomend to all to look toward an alternative. On another note, this
may even have cost me a large contract with a large Kitchien manufacturer - we
built a kitchien design program in flash - the CEO of the company went to look
at it , and ended up with a yahoo toolbar.... negotiations have now stopped as
he was not impressed with the 'flash plugin' - this is making me sick!

To me, this underhanded tactic is a show stopper. Granted, Yahoo
toolbar is pretty benine, but what's next? Gator? Bonzi Buddy? Claria?
Alexia?

Macromedia, you used to be a company that I could trust. Now that you
have done this, what trust I had is gone.

Any of my current and future development plans and consultation from
this point forward: Flash *WILL NOT* be considered.

I'm sorry Macromedia, right now, I trust Microsoft’s "Trustworthy
Computing" more that I trust you guys right now. You are no better than
Gator/Claria or what ever they are calling themselves now.

And no, I'm not being melodramatic. There is nothing I can do in flash
that I can't do with other products (.NET, Java, DHTML, etc)

You made a *show stopper* decision Macromedia. You sold out your
investors to improve your bottom line.

You've violated the trust that people have put in your corporation by
*investing* in your products.

You haven't only sold out on your investing customers, by the ripple
effect, you have sold out your customer’s investors.

The law of unintended consequences is going to come into play very hard
with this decision you have made, all to improve your bottom line.

In this process, you've lost the trust of a customer, an investor, a
consultant, a developer, and a user.

What more can I say? Unintended consequences are a bitch aren't they?

-Xyst





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