[quoted text, click to view]

I just came back 2 days ago from doing a 2-day class in Venice Beach. But seriously - I wasn't
teaching basic stuff like this. The class was filled with people who understand Flash and what
vectors are and how something as simple as selecting an area of a vector shape is achieved. Perhaps
AI doesn't allow you to select like this and "cut-in" to a shape- but if your friend truly has been
using flash any longer then 1 day (ok let's give him 3 days) would (should) really know this unless
they are a programmer who has never ever even opened the toolbox.

The easiest way to tell is something is a vector shape is to...errrr....scale it - if it still looks
crisp with no jagged edges - it's vector. If you can "pull" an edge with the arrow tool - it's a
vector. if you can select it with the sub-selection tool and see the vector points, then it's a
vector object.
If you can rotate it, skew it, distort it, apply the envelope to it - then it's a vector object.

I should clarify.

It will not be scaled up. It will be scaled down.

In my experience, scaling bitmaps at all (either direction) has disastrous results.

I saw this kind of object treatment, and I assumed that I was importing vector
[quoted text, click to view]

May I ask one question? How can you (anyone) assume you are importing vector art? You either drew
the object in Flash using Flash's drawing tools OR you imported it. Assuming means you didn't know
and had to guess. Wouldn't you know how the image got into Flash?

{I asked a good friend who has also been using Flash since version 3 (that's
quite a while), and when I posed this issue to him (not as a criticism of
Flash, but so that I could understand this wacky format), he was at a loss. "It
is just something that Flash does" was his answer.}


One more thing - you mean to say your friend who has been using flash for 5 years- thinks that flash
rasterizes vectors when they are selected? I refuse to believe that. It can't be true and your
friend must have been confused about your question. There is no possible way on earth that he/she
thinks that or would even slightly think that its even remotely possible.

[quoted text, click to view]

How can you possibly make such a stong comment about a program you have yet to learn or barely
understand? You already admitted in another recent thread that you are a complete newbie to Flash -
and already you are complaining that it's isn't easy enough for you? We were all newbies once and I
am always willing to help out a newcomer - but c'mon - you really hope Adobe needs to address the
issue that a partially select vector object may actually be mistaken as being rasterized by the

heh

I realize that I was not explaining well. Sorry for the confusion.

It is difficult to describe what I need because I don;t really know how
Flash approaches graphic editing. On one hand, everything is a vector format in
Chash - it can be re-sized without aliasing. On the other hand, I can drag a
rect over part of it and drag that part out - a characteristic of bitmap
editing. So what is it?

That's why I originally said "rasterize the vectors". I really have no idea
what Flash is doing to the vector art to make it work like a rasterized image.
Flash has its own standard for editing these things. Very confusing.

Also, the 2 maps I posted were not made from the same map - they were taken
from completely different sources. The one on the left is clip art, and the one
on the right was made from the USGS data.


So. . .

It seemed to me (and I guess I'm wrong about this) that I could not import a
vector graphic and then use Flash's "pixel raster/vector format (whatever the
hell it's called)" to simplify the vector data that is superfluous. It is so
friggin hard to describe because of this damned vector/raster thing.

I really do want to understand it, but it seems that (yet again) Flash has
made things confusing.

I do appreciate your help. Let's hope that Adobe turns Flash into an app that
the rest of us can use.

---------------------S

[quoted text, click to view]
Yup - you hit it - i admit it also - this thread has proven to be a waste of my time unfortunately -
I could have spent this time helping legitimate Flash users with legitimate questions.
[quoted text, click to view]
Perhaps that is why it is the most popular and most downloaded web player in history.


[quoted text, click to view]
Wow - I wish I was there to see that happen - that's an amazing claim - I am an AE user as well and
have to ask - just how much of AE were you able to learn in 4 hours?

I was able
[quoted text, click to view]
Well - some of those "hyenas I happen to know - they are real people, with families and with
passions - much like yourself. I don;t appreciate your adolescant candor here but of course, you are
entitled to your opinion - it's juat that name calling is immature and only make yourself look bad.
Honest, you've admitted you don't know the difference between vector and bitmap and anyone reading
this could call you a "retarded hyena" just as easily. Careful when it comes to name calling sir.

I can
[quoted text, click to view]
I will agree with you on that one and I personally have requested this to be changed - it hasn't and
will continue to request it - but in the meantime, I will continue to love and use flash instead of
flaming its makers on a public forum.

[quoted text, click to view]
You are admitting you don't have an open-mind to learning Flash - and therefore it is a sub-standard
program made by retarded hyeneas (making more sense by the paragraph).
[quoted text, click to view]
C'mon, if you are really the guru you describe yourself as, you should be able to learn enough flash
to be able to use it dont you think? I mean, so you took the red pill and can basically install
software as knowledge directly into your brain, but flash eludes you on such a basic level?
something doesnt make sense.


I'll just keep
[quoted text, click to view]
or rather, they will hire someone else who knows flash.

In the mean
[quoted text, click to view]
no comment here - seriously - i really would love to see you learn flash and make cool stuff with it
- i just think you want to hate it instead.
[quoted text, click to view]

I asked a good friend who has also been using Flash since version 3 (that's
quite a while), and when I posed this issue to him (not as a criticism of
Flash, but so that I could understand this wacky format), he was at a loss. "It
is just something that Flash does" was his answer.

But being able to do this to a shape - whether it is created in Flash or
imported, and whether the imported file is vector or bitmap. it just does not
seem like a characteristic of a vector file OR a bitmap file to be able to
drag-select portions of an object, and also scale them without degradation.

http://www.dorseygraphics.com/test/flash/

I saw this kind of object treatment, and I assumed that I was importing vector
art, and it was somehow being rasterized. Since that seemed to be the case, it
also seemed logical to reason that my art was being effectively rasterized when
I imported it. Much like pasting illustrator art into Photoshop. So I was
thinking that there might be a way to utilize this "rasterization" (which I
guess does not really exist) in order to simplify my imported art without
making it look different.

Like I said - it's hard to confuse. If you ever have a class in San Francisco
or San Jose, CA, let me know - I'll take it!

Wow. You really should have that raw nerve looked at. I didn't mean to hit it.

Flash (in my humble opinion) still breaks conventions that all other
animation apps follow. I F***king hate it as a web authoring tool. That being
said, it is a standard, and I wanted to learn more about it.

I was able to sit down and learn AfterEffects in about 4 hours. I was able
to sit down and learn the intricacies of Maya in about 3 days (not counting
MEL). I could (and do) teach classes in Photoshop and Illustrator. I have been
using Director since version 4. I know these apps, and I know them VERY well.

Flash, on theother hand, seems like it was coded by retarded hyenas. I can
select and move keyframes in locked layers? Who thought THAT was a good idea?
That and a thousand other reasons just like it make me hate Flash for what it
is - a sub-standard authoring environment.

I have seen SO MANY AMAZING sites built in Flash. Some are truly astounding.
I really do want to have an open mind about Flash and its abilities, but every
time I sit down and REALLY TRY to figure it out, I am stopped dead and I really
do want to jump in my car a d drive to Redwood City to BEAT THE F***ING CRAP
OUT OF THE PRODUCT MANAGER!!!!

I have to accept that Flash is a standard, and that others will use it. I
guess I never will. I must have been a fool to think that - simply because I am
an accomplished user of a gazillion other design and animationa apps - I might
have an idea that I could possibly use and understand Flash. I have made a very
good living authoring media in EVERY OTHER APP THAT'S OUT THERE. I'll just keep
doing that, and I'll also keep taking clients out of Flash content. In the mean
time, if someone asks for Flash, I'll hire one of you guys and mark the content
up 15% for margin.

I've F***ING had it with this app.

I'm no idiot (contrary to what I'm sure is your opinion). Flash should be
easier for someone like me to learn.

Thanks for your time, and I appreciate the candor.

--------------------------S

[quoted text, click to view]

That makes more sense now - AE as you know is a very deep program - I am a user and agree that the
average user should be able to understand the "concept" of how AE works after 4 hours. But there's a
difference between becoming familiar with a program and mastering it. You made a general statement
that it only took you 4 hours to learn AE - one has to assume you learned everything there is to
know about AE in 4 hours. I just felt that claim needed some clarification. The same concept can be
applied to Flash - spend 4 hours with it and understanding the concept should be achievable. But
don't compare AE to Flash - they are *very* different.

[quoted text, click to view]

You are obviously familiar with what you know - Flash is not like these apps - and for this reason,
it is not produced by retards or hyenas. That's an ignorant reaction that is purely coming from
frustration. To be honest I have no problem here other than unjustified comments like these coming
from somebody who admits they just don't get Flash. That's fine, it's a very different program
because it is a dynamic program - Flash renders on the fly and deals with vectors. It is
interactive. It is everything AE and Maya are not. You can't use Maya and AE to design, animate and
code a game for instance. Just read the Flash help docs about drawing, animating and whatever else
you need to understand the concept of Flash. Eventually you will understand - but, trust me,
sometimes you have to actually allow more the 4 hours for something. I have seriously been using
Flash alomst 24/7 since 1999 and I still learn something new with Flash everyday.


[quoted text, click to view]

I never said I didnt believe after effects was easy to learn. What I said was, I didnt believe you
or anybody can spend just 4 hours with it, and walk away claiming they "know it". That assumes you
truly know *everything* there is to know about it. I knoe AE is far to vast to be mastered in 4 hours.

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but you stated
[quoted text, click to view]

Your claim was amazing though. If you had said "I learned the concept of AE in 4 hours." I would
have believed that with no issues. As I said, I already use AE and love it - which also is why I
know it can't be learned (all of it) in 4 hours. I know a lot of AE people who use it everyday as
their occupation. I called them and asked them if somebody totally new to AE could learn it in 4
hours - every single one of them chuckled or laughed out loud. They agreed there are some aspects to
AE that can easily be learned but for all that AE can do and all that one can make with it - 4 hours
should really be 4 years.
[quoted text, click to view]

That's fine for you - but you are not the barometer for everyone learning Flash no matter what their
background. And so far, you have displayed a huge hurdle just understanding what is vector and what
is a bitmap in Flash. That isn't even in the help docs because nobody has ever had a problem with
it. That is my point. It is extremely easy to realize that Flash is vector-based and when you draw a
shape (red circle) with one of the drawing tools, that the shape is a vector fill. When you select
part of it and eidt it, there's nothing that would make enyone (but you) to think that it has
somehow been converted to a bitmap. Just read the help docs. Just google "Flash drawing". The
answers are boundless on the web and in the help docs. There are so many articles on the devnet site
that explain the drawing tools. It's really not that hard - it shouldn't be no matter what the skill
level is. I teach a course that has several students of all ranges and skillsets - and not one
student has ever challenged the issue you are stumbling over. The shape, no matter what, is vector.
Period.

[quoted text, click to view]
Well, why *did* you say it then? I mean, this thread is full of you saying one thing - then saying
the complete opposite. Remeber "retarded hyenas"?

or that it is impossible to
[quoted text, click to view]

You have yet to point out any "poor design decisions" - except for the lock layers issue - which is
not a "bug". List all of your "poor design decisions" here and I will forward them to the
appropriate people - seriously - list every single one of them so I feel that your claims are
justified - besides, the next beta will be starting sometime in the next 6 months and I always like
to have a list of improvments.
[quoted text, click to view]

maybe if you gave them more than a few hours you would - you are new to flash - so how would you
have seen attention to detail yet? You obviously don't understand flash yet and expected it to be
just like all the other programs your mind has been forged to understand in a different way. You
simply are not willing to scrub your brain free of other programs. That's nobody's fault but your

Chris,

I was concerned with your statement; Yes, I did learn AfterEffects in about
4 hours. It was version 3.1. I was sitting at the kitchen table on my friend's
Mac 8500. Once I got the concept of AE's keyframing, I was able to build
animations, titles, and composited scenes easily. AE is a fantastically easy
app to learn and use considering its power.

Maya was much the same. It had a different style, but it follows the same
animation rules as AE, Lightwave, ElectricImage, Motion, 3DS Max, Final Cut,
and almost every other animation app out there. I use or have experimented with
all of these apps (and more), and none of them have posed any significant
barrier to productivity. Especially not with respect to my experience with
Flash.

I think you know that there is no "red pill" that allows me (or anyone else)
to learn apps any faster than their natural learning curve. I'll be the first
to admit that I'm no programmer - I don't think I'll ever really master Lingo,
and Javascript eludes me. My use of HTML and CSS has been uncharacteristically
technical considering my history as a GUI user of apps. My confidence level
when it comes to learning apps may be artificially high, but I really doubt it.
I have always picked up design and animation apps very easily. This leads me to
believe that Flash is not built in a way that works favorably with other
animation standards.

Another thing that concerned me was your apparent disbelief that
AfterEffects is easy to learn. Correct me if I'm wrong here, but you stated
that my claim was "amazing". I don't think so. I taught AE to a friend in a few
hours, and I can teach it to you in the same amount of time. It really is an
easy app to learn and use.

The idea that AE may be a complicated app for you or others who primarily
use Flash supports my primary hypothesis regarding Flash; If you learned to
animate using standard apps (AE, maya, others from the list above), then you
will probably find Flash more difficult to master. The corollary of that
statement is if you learned to animate using Flash, then the more standardized
apps (from the list above) will be more difficult to master.

I'm not saying that Flash users are idiots, or that it is impossible to
master Flash along with other animation apps. I am saying that the two classes
of animation apps (Flash and non-Flash) follow a different set of standards,
and that Flash's quirks, bugs, and (in my opinion) poor interface decisions
make the job of learning both harder than it has to be.

There are things about Illustrator that bother me, and there are things
about Photoshop that bother me. But in both of those cases, the troublesome
issues generally don't get in the way of my workflow, and they only live in the
product for - at most - one version cycle. Adobe is very good about listening
to its users and implementing changes based on that input. I have not seen this
attention to detail at Macromedia.

That's why I say that I really hope Adobe makes Flash into an app that the
rest of us can use. Not just me, but the "rest of us", meaning the throngs of
people I have spoken to at design shops, ad agencies, corporate marketing
departments, freelance studios, and at user groups who have stumbled while
learning the Flash interface and experience.

I would love to learn Flash. When time permits, I want to take a class and
find out if all of this difficulty is all in my head - because I hate the
thought that there's an app out there that gives me grief the way Flash does. I
pride myself and my career on the ability to solve problems and create content
in any format and for any media. Flash has been the ONLY design-related barrier
for me, and I develop content for broadcast, print, web, interactive
presentations, kiosks, DVDs, and the list goes on.

I know media, and my experience is (I feel) very justified in that Flash is
far too difficult to master.

I don't want to hate Flash - and I don't hate you. I just want to understand
it.

Thanks,

--------------------Steve