macromedia flash flash remoting: Hello all,

I have a short question and a long question. Both ask the same thing; my
long version just clarifies what I'm asking. Please do not thing I am
trolling, or attempting to insult a Macromedia product. I'm trying to
better understand the offerings.

Short question: what does Flash Remoting using a Flash 2004 MX client
application offer that a standalong Flash 2004 MX client application does
not?

Long question: since Flash 2004 MX can post requests to URLs including XML
data why do I need Flash Remoting? It seems Flash Remoting is a
facilitator, an application server web service mapper that provides hooks
that are easily done without it.

At this time, I'm going to run down the Flash Remoting MX overview located
at http://www.macromedia.com/software/flashremoting/productinfo/overview/
and make comments on the main bullet points. All my comments are marked as
(LB - )
Lower Costs and Accelerate Development
Easily Access Business Logic. (LB- Can do with Flash MX standalone by
posting XML or HTTP requests.)

Easily Access Web Services From Macromedia Flash. (LB- Same answer, except
for outside original domain.)

Streamline Your Testing and Debugging. (LB- Does the Net Connection Debugger
exist within MX Standalone?)

Simplify Your Team Workflow. (LB- This can be done using standalone with a
good web service API.)

Build Robust, Scalable Rich Internet Applications
Simplify Recordset Handling. (LB- Can this be done in standalone?)

Continue to Use XML. (LB- Again-- Remoting makes this easier, but it is
still possible with standalone.)

Promote Well-Designed Applications. (LB- Can do with Flash MX standalone by
posting XML or HTTP requests.)

Use Built-In Application Server Features. (LB- Can do with Flash MX
standalone utilize Application server session handling?)

Connect Macromedia Flash to Leading Application Server Technologies
Use Your Existing Web Application Server. .(LB- Can do with Flash MX
standalone by posting XML or HTTP requests.)

Deploy in Your Native Application Server Environment. (LB- Same answer.).

Deploy Consistently Across Platforms and Devices. (LB- Same answer.).



In conclusion, I have three distinct questions.

(1) Does the Net Connection Debugger exist within MX Standalone? On the
Macromedia site using a search, it is only mentioned along with Remoting MX.

(2) Can data recordsets be mapped to a "scrolling list or datagrid" using
2004 MX Standalone?

(3) Can do with Flash MX standalone utilize Application server session
handling? Does Flash MX 2004 automatically utilize cookies stored within a
user's encompassing browser to report itself to an application server? In
other words, does a client-side Flash application embedded in the browser
act and post data as if it were an HTML form within the browser? If the
answer is yes, then "Use Built-In Application Server Features" may also be
duplicated with Standalone.

Thank you for any and all information regarding these topics. I appreciate
all responses.

Lukas

Thank you VERY MUCH for your opinions. I need someone knowledgeable of the
product line to help me.

[quoted text, click to view]
(say, populating a list box or doing a simple drill down form app). When you
are buiilding large, complex RIAs, I wouldn't want to be without it. Imagine
trying to manage a few hundred different types of calls and responses with
XML/http. It probably can be done in Mx04 w/ the webservice connector, but I
am a big fan of remoting because of the bandwidth AMF (remoting) uses
compared to XML.

Could you be more specific about AMF? I'm unfamiliar...

XML parsing client side is what scares me. I think I could come up with a
rather quick schema that mimics HTTP traffic, so I'm not worried about the
communication layer. It's the unknown aspects of the product that I'll
miss.

I'm just sick, sick, sick of my applications having web front ends.

[quoted text, click to view]
penetrated the majority of browsers

Assume your users are willing and able to download the latest player.

[quoted text, click to view]
customizing the buggy v1 UI components, so I'm not about to throw that
knowledge away yet.

Understood and respectable.

[quoted text, click to view]
version is written in AS1. While community members have done it right using
AS2, I would rather wait for MM to do it.

I would like to hear more of your experience with remoting, if you're
willing to share. I just don't find the Macromedia white papers and product
marketing compelling. However, I'm NOT the type of person to dismiss a
technology because of my ignorance, so I'm trying to be thorough.

Lukas

I just found this white paper that gives a good Java-based definition of AMF
and the benefits. I'd like to know raw statistics however.

http://www.macromedia.com/software/flashremoting/whitepapers/pdf/flr_architecture.pdf

Lukas

for something simple, you probably could do without remoting just fine (say, populating a list box or doing a simple drill down form app). When you are buiilding large, complex RIAs, I wouldn't want to be without it. Imagine trying to manage a few hundred different types of calls and responses with XML/http. It probably can be done in Mx04 w/ the webservice connector, but I am a big fan of remoting because of the bandwidth AMF (remoting) uses compared to XML.

I won't even start using MX04 for 3 reasons:

- need to wait at least 12-18 months before the new player (7) has penetrated the majority of browsers

- just learned AS1 about 5 months ago, and invested countless hours customizing the buggy v1 UI components, so I'm not about to throw that knowledge away yet.

- Waiting for an official release of remoting for MX04... the current version is written in AS1. While community members have done it right using AS2, I would rather wait for MM to do it.

[quoted text, click to view]

AMF, or action message format, is a proprietary protocol developed by Macromedia which serializes and deserializes flash objects. Here is a great comparison in deciding whether to use an AMF derived product or XML (SOAP):

http://www.flashorb.com/articles/soap_vs_flash_remoting_benchmark.shtml

here's another comment:

"When using the built in SOAP serivices, you have to have the player work with Strings and when using Remoting you have a binary transer of data (AMF) and the player works with native Data Objects.

Small SOAP data: use WebServiceConnector.

Large Native Data Objects: Use Remoting.

It's not rocket science."


To date, my experience with remoting has been great. It was very easy to grasp, as I've done a good bit of web service stuff and my backend is all Cold Fusion MX, which makes remoting a snap. Most of my problems have been how to work with the data AFTER I get it to the client side, but usually things can be worked out.

That is an excellent argument for Remoting. And in reading about it more,
I'd say it is THE reason to switch. Frankly, anyone can write a
communication layer for webservices integration. However, not in a
propreitary binary format.

NOW-- explain to me how indies are developing these things themselves. Is
there an open API, or are they hacking their way through it?

My primary example would be here. http://sourceforge.net/projects/openamf/

Second, and I'm sure there are billions of threads about this issue, when
will Macromedia or anyone else support the AS2 API with Remoting?

Lukas

1. AS 2.0 is actually compatible with flash player 6.79

2. You certainly are not going to throuw that knowledge away, you are going
to build on it and extend it. BTW the components in FlashMX 2004 pro are
very good. If you stick with FlashMX you can get UI components 2 and maybe
3 for FREE and the quality is better. Check through MM exchange.

3. The so-called "official" remoting for 2004 is and has been available. I
think you will find it quite exciting. You can get it at:
http://www.macromedia.com/software/flashremoting/downloads/components/

4. As a bonus there are Remoting components created by Justin Watkins. You
can download the extension at:
http://www.amfphp.org/components/

Happy coding............

-//- Jaye

[quoted text, click to view]
(say, populating a list box or doing a simple drill down form app). When you
are buiilding large, complex RIAs, I wouldn't want to be without it. Imagine
trying to manage a few hundred different types of calls and responses with
XML/http. It probably can be done in Mx04 w/ the webservice connector, but I
am a big fan of remoting because of the bandwidth AMF (remoting) uses
compared to XML.
[quoted text, click to view]
customizing the buggy v1 UI components, so I'm not about to throw that
knowledge away yet.
[quoted text, click to view]
version is written in AS1. While community members have done it right using
AS2, I would rather wait for MM to do it.
[quoted text, click to view]

The Remoting components created by Justin won't install on my system. When
I use the extension manager to install the d/l file I receive the message
"The extension package is invalid. The extension will not be installed."

Any ideas?

--

Troy Murray

The views expressed in this
newsgroup posting are my
personal opinions and views
and do not reflect on those of
my employeer.
[quoted text, click to view]

What version of Flash are you using. Also what version of Extension Manager
are you using?

-//- Jaye

[quoted text, click to view]