"Kevin Spencer" <kspencer@takempis.com> wrote in message
news:elvhXVQwEHA.2316@TK2MSFTNGP15.phx.gbl...
> I am a team leader and Senior Application Developer for my company. I
> participate in the hiring process. I couldn't care less about the
> certificates that prospective employees have. A certificate proves only
that
> one can cram for and pass an exam. As a programmer, I've never had to take
> an exam in order to create an application. Therefore, the ability to take
> exams is not a requirement for software developers. Writing solid code is.
> So, if you want to work for me, you've got to show me the money (i.e.
code).
> On the other hand, if you want to work for a beaurocratic dinosaur, get as
> many certificates as you can, and best of luck to you.
>
> --
> HTH,
> Kevin Spencer
> .Net Developer
> Microsoft MVP
> I get paid good money to
> solve puzzles for a living
>
> "andy lim" <admin@infoteknika.com> wrote in message
> news:eKfkwDPwEHA.4048@TK2MSFTNGP15.phx.gbl...
> > hello all,
> >
> > i developed several ASP.NET web application with VS2003.
> > i'm preparing myself to take an exam on the path to MCAD.NET.
> > then, the VS2005/.NET framework 2.0 (beta) came in to my hand. after i
> > played around for some time with it, i found that VS2005/.NET 2.0
includes
> > so many built-in functionalities that we need to built from scratch with
> > VS2003. for example: user authorization/authentication, datagrid
> > formatting/sorting/paging etc.
> > the bottom line is: developing with VS2005/.NET 2.0 can makes my
> development
> > life much easier than using VS2003/.NET 1.1
> >
> > can someone tell me, is it still worth my effort and time to take that
> > expensive certification exam, if it would only 2 years or so to become
> > obsolete? or, should i better wait till Microsoft officially replaced
all
> > MCAD.NET to conform with its new release (in VS2005/.NET 2.0)?
> >
> > i really feels like i'm on a crossroad here, and need some insights from
> you
> > all...
> >
> > thanks in advance,
> > andy
> >
> >
> >
>
>

"Kevin Spencer" <kspencer@takempis.com> wrote in message
news:uzsVLWrwEHA.1512@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl...
> Hi Shawn,
>
> I hope you didn't consider my post to indicate that I would count
> certificates AGAINST anyone. I just don't count them at all. Microsoft
> consultants, for example, are encouraged to get as many certificates as
they
> can, and for obvious reasons, as they work for all kinds of companies,
some
> of them quite large and beaurocratic. Having a certificate could not
> logically be held against anyone; it certainly shows no lack of character.
> However, neither is it an accurate indicator of the person's programming
> ability. Their code certainly IS.
>
> --
> HTH,
> Kevin Spencer
> .Net Developer
> Microsoft MVP
> I get paid good money to
> solve puzzles for a living
>
> "Shawn B." <leabre@html.com> wrote in message
> news:uWd#IuqwEHA.2192@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl...
> > I'm a senior developer writing the accounting system for an insurance
> > software company, and have been a senior developer for other enterprises
> in
> > the past. I am quite intimate with .NET / ASP.NET / C++ and the VB6 COM
> > world, know how to design software very well that scales, performs, easy
> to
> > maintain, and maximizes code-reuse. I don't have a college degree nor
do
> I
> > have any certifications but I do have 8 years of professional experience
> and
> > 15 years total of programming experience. However, I am working on my
> MCSD
> > right now not so much for future employment (I'm currently employed and
> > happy) but as an educational tool, more or less. I am very familiar
with
> > most of the content required by the MCSD and have the experience to back
> it
> > up, but some of the "finer" points I've picked up from studying for the
> exam
> > and the exam forces you to have to formalize your knowledge of the
> material
> > covered.
> >
> > I can agree with the sentiment that certifications prove nothing and
that
> > code speaks louder than words. I've had my share of cleaning up
horrible
> > code from other people (and my own, I haven't always been perfect and
> still
> > am not) and having to teach people from India and Pakistan who have
> multiple
> > masters degrees in computer science math and physics that don't know how
> to
> > debug a C# application or a VB6 component, so we can argue that
education
> > isn't everything either. I've worked with others who are "self-taught"
> who
> > make for headaches on the team and those who are excellent performers.
> You
> > just can't know until you meet the person and probe them in an interview
> for
> > thier abilities and their problem solving skills.
> >
> > But to hold a bias AGAINST people who have a certification isn't a good
> > thing, it really cheats the a person who may be fully-qualified for the
> > position and the company. I would hate to think that because I took the
> > time to earn a certification in a field that I'm very well experienced
and
> > competent in would actually deny me a position somewhere because of an
> > overly zealous bias, as well as I would hate to think that I got the job
> > only because of the certification. But I know how the world works and
> that
> > there is a hard sentiment against certification holders but personally,
I
> > don't think they indicate one way or the next what the person is capable
> of,
> > and should be treated as such.
> >
> > Some people get them for an easy oppurtunity, others like myself get
them
> to
> > help reinforce what I already know from experience and extensive trial
and
> > error. Why should I be denied employment because of it?
> >
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Shawn
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > "Kevin Spencer" <kspencer@takempis.com> wrote in message
> > news:elvhXVQwEHA.2316@TK2MSFTNGP15.phx.gbl...
> > > I am a team leader and Senior Application Developer for my company. I
> > > participate in the hiring process. I couldn't care less about the
> > > certificates that prospective employees have. A certificate proves
only
> > that
> > > one can cram for and pass an exam. As a programmer, I've never had to
> take
> > > an exam in order to create an application. Therefore, the ability to
> take
> > > exams is not a requirement for software developers. Writing solid code
> is.
> > > So, if you want to work for me, you've got to show me the money (i.e.
> > code).
> > > On the other hand, if you want to work for a beaurocratic dinosaur,
get
> as
> > > many certificates as you can, and best of luck to you.
> > >
> > > --
> > > HTH,
> > > Kevin Spencer
> > > .Net Developer
> > > Microsoft MVP
> > > I get paid good money to
> > > solve puzzles for a living
> > >
> > > "andy lim" <admin@infoteknika.com> wrote in message
> > > news:eKfkwDPwEHA.4048@TK2MSFTNGP15.phx.gbl...
> > > > hello all,
> > > >
> > > > i developed several ASP.NET web application with VS2003.
> > > > i'm preparing myself to take an exam on the path to MCAD.NET.
> > > > then, the VS2005/.NET framework 2.0 (beta) came in to my hand. after
i
> > > > played around for some time with it, i found that VS2005/.NET 2.0
> > includes
> > > > so many built-in functionalities that we need to built from scratch
> with
> > > > VS2003. for example: user authorization/authentication, datagrid
> > > > formatting/sorting/paging etc.
> > > > the bottom line is: developing with VS2005/.NET 2.0 can makes my
> > > development
> > > > life much easier than using VS2003/.NET 1.1
> > > >
> > > > can someone tell me, is it still worth my effort and time to take
that
> > > > expensive certification exam, if it would only 2 years or so to
become
> > > > obsolete? or, should i better wait till Microsoft officially
replaced
> > all
> > > > MCAD.NET to conform with its new release (in VS2005/.NET 2.0)?
> > > >
> > > > i really feels like i'm on a crossroad here, and need some insights
> from
> > > you
> > > > all...
> > > >
> > > > thanks in advance,
> > > > andy
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>

"Shawn B." <leabre@html.com> wrote in message
news:uWd#IuqwEHA.2192@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl...
> I'm a senior developer writing the accounting system for an insurance
> software company, and have been a senior developer for other enterprises
in
> the past. I am quite intimate with .NET / ASP.NET / C++ and the VB6 COM
> world, know how to design software very well that scales, performs, easy
to
> maintain, and maximizes code-reuse. I don't have a college degree nor do
I
> have any certifications but I do have 8 years of professional experience
and
> 15 years total of programming experience. However, I am working on my
MCSD
> right now not so much for future employment (I'm currently employed and
> happy) but as an educational tool, more or less. I am very familiar with
> most of the content required by the MCSD and have the experience to back
it
> up, but some of the "finer" points I've picked up from studying for the
exam
> and the exam forces you to have to formalize your knowledge of the
material
> covered.
>
> I can agree with the sentiment that certifications prove nothing and that
> code speaks louder than words. I've had my share of cleaning up horrible
> code from other people (and my own, I haven't always been perfect and
still
> am not) and having to teach people from India and Pakistan who have
multiple
> masters degrees in computer science math and physics that don't know how
to
> debug a C# application or a VB6 component, so we can argue that education
> isn't everything either. I've worked with others who are "self-taught"
who
> make for headaches on the team and those who are excellent performers.
You
> just can't know until you meet the person and probe them in an interview
for
> thier abilities and their problem solving skills.
>
> But to hold a bias AGAINST people who have a certification isn't a good
> thing, it really cheats the a person who may be fully-qualified for the
> position and the company. I would hate to think that because I took the
> time to earn a certification in a field that I'm very well experienced and
> competent in would actually deny me a position somewhere because of an
> overly zealous bias, as well as I would hate to think that I got the job
> only because of the certification. But I know how the world works and
that
> there is a hard sentiment against certification holders but personally, I
> don't think they indicate one way or the next what the person is capable
of,
> and should be treated as such.
>
> Some people get them for an easy oppurtunity, others like myself get them
to
> help reinforce what I already know from experience and extensive trial and
> error. Why should I be denied employment because of it?
>
>
> Thanks,
> Shawn
>
>
>
>
> "Kevin Spencer" <kspencer@takempis.com> wrote in message
> news:elvhXVQwEHA.2316@TK2MSFTNGP15.phx.gbl...
> > I am a team leader and Senior Application Developer for my company. I
> > participate in the hiring process. I couldn't care less about the
> > certificates that prospective employees have. A certificate proves only
> that
> > one can cram for and pass an exam. As a programmer, I've never had to
take
> > an exam in order to create an application. Therefore, the ability to
take
> > exams is not a requirement for software developers. Writing solid code
is.
> > So, if you want to work for me, you've got to show me the money (i.e.
> code).
> > On the other hand, if you want to work for a beaurocratic dinosaur, get
as
> > many certificates as you can, and best of luck to you.
> >
> > --
> > HTH,
> > Kevin Spencer
> > .Net Developer
> > Microsoft MVP
> > I get paid good money to
> > solve puzzles for a living
> >
> > "andy lim" <admin@infoteknika.com> wrote in message
> > news:eKfkwDPwEHA.4048@TK2MSFTNGP15.phx.gbl...
> > > hello all,
> > >
> > > i developed several ASP.NET web application with VS2003.
> > > i'm preparing myself to take an exam on the path to MCAD.NET.
> > > then, the VS2005/.NET framework 2.0 (beta) came in to my hand. after i
> > > played around for some time with it, i found that VS2005/.NET 2.0
> includes
> > > so many built-in functionalities that we need to built from scratch
with
> > > VS2003. for example: user authorization/authentication, datagrid
> > > formatting/sorting/paging etc.
> > > the bottom line is: developing with VS2005/.NET 2.0 can makes my
> > development
> > > life much easier than using VS2003/.NET 1.1
> > >
> > > can someone tell me, is it still worth my effort and time to take that
> > > expensive certification exam, if it would only 2 years or so to become
> > > obsolete? or, should i better wait till Microsoft officially replaced
> all
> > > MCAD.NET to conform with its new release (in VS2005/.NET 2.0)?
> > >
> > > i really feels like i'm on a crossroad here, and need some insights
from
> > you
> > > all...
> > >
> > > thanks in advance,
> > > andy
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>

"Kevin Spencer" <kspencer@takempis.com> wrote in message
news:elvhXVQwEHA.2316@TK2MSFTNGP15.phx.gbl...

>I am a team leader and Senior Application Developer for my company. I
> participate in the hiring process. I couldn't care less about the
> certificates that prospective employees have. A certificate proves only
> that
> one can cram for and pass an exam. As a programmer, I've never had to take
> an exam in order to create an application. Therefore, the ability to take
> exams is not a requirement for software developers. Writing solid code is.
> So, if you want to work for me, you've got to show me the money (i.e.
> code).
> On the other hand, if you want to work for a beaurocratic dinosaur, get as
> many certificates as you can, and best of luck to you.

"Shawn B." wrote:

> Much agreed.
>
>
> Thanks,
> Shawn
>
>
> "Kevin Spencer" <kspencer@takempis.com> wrote in message
> news:uzsVLWrwEHA.1512@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl...
> > Hi Shawn,
> >
> > I hope you didn't consider my post to indicate that I would count
> > certificates AGAINST anyone. I just don't count them at all. Microsoft
> > consultants, for example, are encouraged to get as many certificates as
> they
> > can, and for obvious reasons, as they work for all kinds of companies,
> some
> > of them quite large and beaurocratic. Having a certificate could not
> > logically be held against anyone; it certainly shows no lack of character.
> > However, neither is it an accurate indicator of the person's programming
> > ability. Their code certainly IS.
> >
> > --
> > HTH,
> > Kevin Spencer
> > .Net Developer
> > Microsoft MVP
> > I get paid good money to
> > solve puzzles for a living
> >
> > "Shawn B." <leabre@html.com> wrote in message
> > news:uWd#IuqwEHA.2192@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl...
> > > I'm a senior developer writing the accounting system for an insurance
> > > software company, and have been a senior developer for other enterprises
> > in
> > > the past. I am quite intimate with .NET / ASP.NET / C++ and the VB6 COM
> > > world, know how to design software very well that scales, performs, easy
> > to
> > > maintain, and maximizes code-reuse. I don't have a college degree nor
> do
> > I
> > > have any certifications but I do have 8 years of professional experience
> > and
> > > 15 years total of programming experience. However, I am working on my
> > MCSD
> > > right now not so much for future employment (I'm currently employed and
> > > happy) but as an educational tool, more or less. I am very familiar
> with
> > > most of the content required by the MCSD and have the experience to back
> > it
> > > up, but some of the "finer" points I've picked up from studying for the
> > exam
> > > and the exam forces you to have to formalize your knowledge of the
> > material
> > > covered.
> > >
> > > I can agree with the sentiment that certifications prove nothing and
> that
> > > code speaks louder than words. I've had my share of cleaning up
> horrible
> > > code from other people (and my own, I haven't always been perfect and
> > still
> > > am not) and having to teach people from India and Pakistan who have
> > multiple
> > > masters degrees in computer science math and physics that don't know how
> > to
> > > debug a C# application or a VB6 component, so we can argue that
> education
> > > isn't everything either. I've worked with others who are "self-taught"
> > who
> > > make for headaches on the team and those who are excellent performers.
> > You
> > > just can't know until you meet the person and probe them in an interview
> > for
> > > thier abilities and their problem solving skills.
> > >
> > > But to hold a bias AGAINST people who have a certification isn't a good
> > > thing, it really cheats the a person who may be fully-qualified for the
> > > position and the company. I would hate to think that because I took the
> > > time to earn a certification in a field that I'm very well experienced
> and
> > > competent in would actually deny me a position somewhere because of an
> > > overly zealous bias, as well as I would hate to think that I got the job
> > > only because of the certification. But I know how the world works and
> > that
> > > there is a hard sentiment against certification holders but personally,
> I
> > > don't think they indicate one way or the next what the person is capable
> > of,
> > > and should be treated as such.
> > >
> > > Some people get them for an easy oppurtunity, others like myself get
> them
> > to
> > > help reinforce what I already know from experience and extensive trial
> and
> > > error. Why should I be denied employment because of it?
> > >
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > > Shawn
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > "Kevin Spencer" <kspencer@takempis.com> wrote in message
> > > news:elvhXVQwEHA.2316@TK2MSFTNGP15.phx.gbl...
> > > > I am a team leader and Senior Application Developer for my company. I
> > > > participate in the hiring process. I couldn't care less about the
> > > > certificates that prospective employees have. A certificate proves
> only
> > > that
> > > > one can cram for and pass an exam. As a programmer, I've never had to
> > take
> > > > an exam in order to create an application. Therefore, the ability to
> > take
> > > > exams is not a requirement for software developers. Writing solid code
> > is.
> > > > So, if you want to work for me, you've got to show me the money (i.e.
> > > code).
> > > > On the other hand, if you want to work for a beaurocratic dinosaur,
> get
> > as
> > > > many certificates as you can, and best of luck to you.
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > HTH,
> > > > Kevin Spencer
> > > > .Net Developer
> > > > Microsoft MVP
> > > > I get paid good money to
> > > > solve puzzles for a living
> > > >
> > > > "andy lim" <admin@infoteknika.com> wrote in message
> > > > news:eKfkwDPwEHA.4048@TK2MSFTNGP15.phx.gbl...
> > > > > hello all,
> > > > >
> > > > > i developed several ASP.NET web application with VS2003.
> > > > > i'm preparing myself to take an exam on the path to MCAD.NET.
> > > > > then, the VS2005/.NET framework 2.0 (beta) came in to my hand. after
> i
> > > > > played around for some time with it, i found that VS2005/.NET 2.0
> > > includes
> > > > > so many built-in functionalities that we need to built from scratch
> > with
> > > > > VS2003. for example: user authorization/authentication, datagrid
> > > > > formatting/sorting/paging etc.
> > > > > the bottom line is: developing with VS2005/.NET 2.0 can makes my
> > > > development
> > > > > life much easier than using VS2003/.NET 1.1
> > > > >
> > > > > can someone tell me, is it still worth my effort and time to take
> that
> > > > > expensive certification exam, if it would only 2 years or so to
> become
> > > > > obsolete? or, should i better wait till Microsoft officially
> replaced
> > > all
> > > > > MCAD.NET to conform with its new release (in VS2005/.NET 2.0)?
> > > > >
> > > > > i really feels like i'm on a crossroad here, and need some insights
> > from
> > > > you
> > > > > all...
> > > > >
> > > > > thanks in advance,
> > > > > andy
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>