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asp.net : Re: n-layer approach
"Aidy" <aidy@noemail.xxxa.com> wrote in message I agree.news:o4WdnSWoBrTOa3bYnZ2dnUVZ8tqqnZ2d@bt.com... > If you don't need an n-tier approach then don't use one. There is no > point using technology for technology's sake. The one thing I will say > about the SqlDataSource is that you're applications are not strongly > typed, which is one of the corners of .net development. > As long as your applications don't deal with sensitive data, there's no reason why you should get too sophisticated. There is no, "One size fits all" in application development. Peter
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> why did Microsoft introduce a component that would allow (encourage) this > if it is serious? I could do a website and not right a single line of code. I can drag connections, tables etc on the form and have wizards do all my code. If you don't want to learn how to code it is better than nothing....but the resultant application won't be very robust or scalable. You can use SqlDataSources to cut out a lot of the actual coding, but that doesn't mean your solution is the "best" it can be. MS have just given you a range of tools to use and you decide which one is best for you. If binding typeless data direct to your controls is fine for you then fair enough. For people who want strongly typed data it isn't fine.
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> All variants.... Explains it all :D What you're basically doing is doing ASP.net the ASP way. Quite common really, but not the best way.
[quoted text, click to view] "Aidy" <aidy@noemail.xxxa.com> wrote in message news:ib2dne8Bx_vls3HYRVnyhwA@bt.com... >> All variants.... > > Explains it all :D > > What you're basically doing is doing ASP.net the ASP way. Quite common > really, but not the best way. And that says it all. I am still none the wiser for your contribution.
<rant>
Because they're selling to the PHBs who think that coding, "Is all drag-and-drop these days". People like you, on the other hand, pick up that what they're saying is self-contradictory nonsense. Be-suited CTOs are apparently incapable of realising that solving difficult problems is difficult. No amount of drag-and-drop can make it easy. But all they can see is "applications ready for shipment in a matter of hours". The fact that these applications are barely functional, flakey, insecure and bloated - never mind the fact that much of the code is now hidden from view - hardly makes it onto their radar. It's like the use of tools to write HTML. Tools write dreadful HTML (never mind XHTML). Every one of them. Including Dreamweaver. But will your boss believe you that it's easier to hand code your pages? Oh dear no! So you have to use the idiot tool he bought licenses for without consulting the people who do the work, and then spend days de-moronising HTML pages. Then he wonders why the project's late. They swallow Microsoft's latest Kool-Aid and the poor practitioners are left to pick up the pieces. The only winner in all this is, guess who? Correct. Microsoft, who've sold another vapour-ware license for many times its worth. </rant> Peter [quoted text, click to view] "cowznofsky" <jhcorey@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:1173109280.284277.303730@30g2000cwc.googlegroups.com... On Mar 5, 3:15 am, Adlai Maschiach <AdlaiMaschi...@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote: Just to add to the confusion, I recently attended an MS workshop on Windows Forms Technologies. There is nothing at all mentioned about an n-layer approach. The use of controls such as the SQLDataSource is noted as 'Best Practice'. I can't understand this at all, since this is in direct contradiction to the multi-tiered approach that MS has been pushing in other media for years. These controls are often used in MS presentations: "Look, I just created an application in 10 seconds!". These controls also find their way into the books that are written to coincide with new releases. The result is a lot of wasted time on the part of developers who try these things and then realize later that they would have been better off if they had used code rather than these data access controls. Some of the "scorn poured on the SQLDataSource", is no doubt from developers who have been burned before.
I think what he's saying (although not very kindly IMHO) is that you could
do with spending some time looking at some of the theories behind programming in general, and good programming practices in particular. This is not knowledge that one finds, usually, amongst people with your programming background. In fact, many people would argue that the scripting languages you mention mitigate against good programming practice. This group can't supply you with a background knowledge of programming theory and practice. You need to sit down with a few good books for that. This one might do for a start: http://www.compman.co.uk/scripts/browse.asp?ref=783974 (Since you're interested in an OO language, you'd might as well learn the theory behind it) Once you've got some basic background, you might like to look at books on patterns and practices. Like this for example: http://www.compman.co.uk/scripts/browse.asp?ref=801797 (Since you're intersted in an MS product, you'd might as well read MS' book) Remember that most of us came by this knowledge through hard work. We're happy to pass on the hints and tips that we picked up along the way, but a newsgroup is not the place for a tutorial. For that you must either read books or join a course. This is not trying to be unkind. It's just that without a basic level of background knowledge, you aren't going to understand what we say. We need to have a common vocabulary with you for us to communicate and for you to understand. What I'm suggesting is that you need to spend some time learning that vocabulary. I'm sure you'll find it rewarding. I did. Best of luck and HTH Peter [quoted text, click to view] "Dotnet" <someone@somewhere.com> wrote in message news:OcYPB3zXHHA.4560@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl... > > "Aidy" <aidy@noemail.xxxa.com> wrote in message > news:ib2dne8Bx_vls3HYRVnyhwA@bt.com... >>> All variants.... >> >> Explains it all :D >> >> What you're basically doing is doing ASP.net the ASP way. Quite common >> really, but not the best way. > > And that says it all. I am still none the wiser for your contribution. > > >
Thank you Peter.
Incidentally, I have had no formal training in any kind of programming. As I said in my OP - I want to "do the right thing". I learnt ASP with VBScript in my own time through hard work, and became very conscious of doing it as well as possible. I'm going through the same process with ASP.NET. There is so much to learn, and as cowznofsky pointed out, so much contradictory stuff, I thought I'd come here and get a little help on focusing my attention in the right areas, and trying to identify the red herrings. Mike [quoted text, click to view] "Peter Bradley" <pbradley@uwic.ac.uk> wrote in message news:uckhSb8XHHA.3256@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl... >I think what he's saying (although not very kindly IMHO) is that you could >do with spending some time looking at some of the theories behind >programming in general, and good programming practices in particular. This >is not knowledge that one finds, usually, amongst people with your >programming background. In fact, many people would argue that the >scripting languages you mention mitigate against good programming practice. > > This group can't supply you with a background knowledge of programming > theory and practice. You need to sit down with a few good books for that. > This one might do for a start: > > http://www.compman.co.uk/scripts/browse.asp?ref=783974 > > (Since you're interested in an OO language, you'd might as well learn the > theory behind it) > > Once you've got some basic background, you might like to look at books on > patterns and practices. Like this for example: > > http://www.compman.co.uk/scripts/browse.asp?ref=801797 > > (Since you're intersted in an MS product, you'd might as well read MS' > book) > > Remember that most of us came by this knowledge through hard work. We're > happy to pass on the hints and tips that we picked up along the way, but a > newsgroup is not the place for a tutorial. For that you must either read > books or join a course. This is not trying to be unkind. It's just that > without a basic level of background knowledge, you aren't going to > understand what we say. We need to have a common vocabulary with you for > us to communicate and for you to understand. > > What I'm suggesting is that you need to spend some time learning that > vocabulary. I'm sure you'll find it rewarding. I did. > > Best of luck and HTH > > > Peter > > > > "Dotnet" <someone@somewhere.com> wrote in message > news:OcYPB3zXHHA.4560@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl... >> >> "Aidy" <aidy@noemail.xxxa.com> wrote in message >> news:ib2dne8Bx_vls3HYRVnyhwA@bt.com... >>>> All variants.... >>> >>> Explains it all :D >>> >>> What you're basically doing is doing ASP.net the ASP way. Quite common >>> really, but not the best way. >> >> And that says it all. I am still none the wiser for your contribution. >> >> >> > >
Best of luck, Mike. I hope the references I gave give you a start. There's
also a wealth of tutorial material on the net - but it's of varying quality, so I'd not rely on it until you have enough knowledge to judge. I came into IT very late in life, and one thing I did was to study night school and part-time/distance learning classes. I finished up, somehow, with an MSc in IT at Liverpool University. If you're in the UK (or even if you're not, come to think of it), you might look at UK Open University courses. They do some good stuff on OOA/D/P at both undergraduate and post-graduate level. It's Java or Smalltalk based, depending on the course, but once you have that background, you'll find C# comes naturally. Java, especially, as it's very close to C#. You can just take whatever modules you like with the OU. You don't have to study for a degree. Remember that there's more to programming than just "getting something working". It's a craft: a skill. Good programmers take a pride in a job well done: in being able to look at some code and think, "Not many people could have done that any better than I have". They worry about architecture, good design, security, reusability, performance and many other things (like whether to use vi or emacs :)). Post again when you need some specific help. The problem with your OP was that an answer requires that you understand a fair bit about application architecture, design patterns and program security. Until you have that, it's hard to answer your query without seeming either rude or patronising. But you seem to be a determined guy. You'll probably come back and put our problems right. Cheers Peter [quoted text, click to view] "Dotnet" <someone@somewhere.com> wrote in message news:%23w5hM29XHHA.5044@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl... > Thank you Peter. > > Incidentally, I have had no formal training in any kind of programming. As > I said in my OP - I want to "do the right thing". I learnt ASP with > VBScript in my own time through hard work, and became very conscious of > doing it as well as possible. I'm going through the same process with > ASP.NET. There is so much to learn, and as cowznofsky pointed out, so > much contradictory stuff, I thought I'd come here and get a little help on > focusing my attention in the right areas, and trying to identify the red > herrings. > > Mike > > > > > "Peter Bradley" <pbradley@uwic.ac.uk> wrote in message > news:uckhSb8XHHA.3256@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl... >>I think what he's saying (although not very kindly IMHO) is that you could >>do with spending some time looking at some of the theories behind >>programming in general, and good programming practices in particular. >>This is not knowledge that one finds, usually, amongst people with your >>programming background. In fact, many people would argue that the >>scripting languages you mention mitigate against good programming >>practice. >> >> This group can't supply you with a background knowledge of programming >> theory and practice. You need to sit down with a few good books for >> that. This one might do for a start: >> >> http://www.compman.co.uk/scripts/browse.asp?ref=783974 >> >> (Since you're interested in an OO language, you'd might as well learn the >> theory behind it) >> >> Once you've got some basic background, you might like to look at books on >> patterns and practices. Like this for example: >> >> http://www.compman.co.uk/scripts/browse.asp?ref=801797 >> >> (Since you're intersted in an MS product, you'd might as well read MS' >> book) >> >> Remember that most of us came by this knowledge through hard work. We're >> happy to pass on the hints and tips that we picked up along the way, but >> a newsgroup is not the place for a tutorial. For that you must either >> read books or join a course. This is not trying to be unkind. It's just >> that without a basic level of background knowledge, you aren't going to >> understand what we say. We need to have a common vocabulary with you for >> us to communicate and for you to understand. >> >> What I'm suggesting is that you need to spend some time learning that >> vocabulary. I'm sure you'll find it rewarding. I did. >> >> Best of luck and HTH >> >> >> Peter >> >> >> >> "Dotnet" <someone@somewhere.com> wrote in message >> news:OcYPB3zXHHA.4560@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl... >>> >>> "Aidy" <aidy@noemail.xxxa.com> wrote in message >>> news:ib2dne8Bx_vls3HYRVnyhwA@bt.com... >>>>> All variants.... >>>> >>>> Explains it all :D >>>> >>>> What you're basically doing is doing ASP.net the ASP way. Quite common >>>> really, but not the best way. >>> >>> And that says it all. I am still none the wiser for your contribution. >>> >>> >>> >> >> > >
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