"Bernhard Wurm" <Bernhard@eworx.at> wrote in message
news:%23AB%23Q5RtEHA.1720@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl...
> No Entries at the badmail directory!
>
> Hello!
> If I try to send an email for example to somebody@he$dlf§.at I get an
eMail,
> that the mail couldn't be sent to the reciever. but I don't get an entry
at
> the badmail directory!!!!
> Why not?
> What can I do to get an entry?
>
> thx
> Bernhard
>
>

> Hi Bernhard,
>
> I guess the email gets rejected at protocol level at RCPT TO as he$dlf§.at
> is an invalid domain. Tested using my local server:
>
> mail from: <nobody@example.org>
> 250 2.1.0 nobody@example.org....Sender OK
> rcpt to: <somebody@he$dl§.at>
> 501 5.5.4 Invalid Address
>
> So the email is never sent, i.e. there is nothing to put into the Badmail
> folder.
>
> Peter

> Hi Bernhard,
>
> I guess the email gets rejected at protocol level at RCPT TO as he$dlf§.at
> is an invalid domain. Tested using my local server:
>
> mail from: <nobody@example.org>
> 250 2.1.0 nobody@example.org....Sender OK
> rcpt to: <somebody@he$dl§.at>
> 501 5.5.4 Invalid Address
>
> So the email is never sent, i.e. there is nothing to put into the Badmail
> folder.
>
> Peter
>
>
> "Bernhard Wurm" <Bernhard@eworx.at> wrote in message
> news:%23AB%23Q5RtEHA.1720@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl...
>> No Entries at the badmail directory!
>>
>> Hello!
>> If I try to send an email for example to somebody@he$dlf§.at I get an
> eMail,
>> that the mail couldn't be sent to the reciever. but I don't get an entry
> at
>> the badmail directory!!!!
>> Why not?
>> What can I do to get an entry?
>>
>> thx
>> Bernhard
>>
>>
>
>

"Raupes" <Bernhard@eworx.at> wrote in message
news:e2MO$MbtEHA.2688@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl...
> Is it possible to get this information.

> All I need is the smtp error number (like 501) of ALL Bounces!

> (- and a
> table, which error-number is which bounce type - softbounce, hardbounce -
> but this is another thing :-) )

>
> "Peter Karsai" <welcome.home@[127.0.0.1]> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
> news:%23b37uCbtEHA.2864@TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl...
> > Hi Bernhard,
> >
> > I guess the email gets rejected at protocol level at RCPT TO as
he$dlf§.at
> > is an invalid domain. Tested using my local server:
> >
> > mail from: <nobody@example.org>
> > 250 2.1.0 nobody@example.org....Sender OK
> > rcpt to: <somebody@he$dl§.at>
> > 501 5.5.4 Invalid Address
> >
> > So the email is never sent, i.e. there is nothing to put into the
Badmail
> > folder.
> >
> > Peter
>
>

"Raupes" <Bernhard@eworx.at> wrote in message
news:%23$oZ8TbtEHA.1400@TK2MSFTNGP11.phx.gbl...
> Ok now i tried another thing. I've sent an email to nobody@example.org
> I got an email that the reciever isn't available.
> But I also didn't get an entry at the badmail directory!
>
>
>
>
> "Peter Karsai" <welcome.home@[127.0.0.1]> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
> news:%23b37uCbtEHA.2864@TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl...
> > Hi Bernhard,
> >
> > I guess the email gets rejected at protocol level at RCPT TO as
he$dlf§.at
> > is an invalid domain. Tested using my local server:
> >
> > mail from: <nobody@example.org>
> > 250 2.1.0 nobody@example.org....Sender OK
> > rcpt to: <somebody@he$dl§.at>
> > 501 5.5.4 Invalid Address
> >
> > So the email is never sent, i.e. there is nothing to put into the
Badmail
> > folder.
> >
> > Peter
> >
> >
> > "Bernhard Wurm" <Bernhard@eworx.at> wrote in message
> > news:%23AB%23Q5RtEHA.1720@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl...
> >> No Entries at the badmail directory!
> >>
> >> Hello!
> >> If I try to send an email for example to somebody@he$dlf§.at I get an
> > eMail,
> >> that the mail couldn't be sent to the reciever. but I don't get an
entry
> > at
> >> the badmail directory!!!!
> >> Why not?
> >> What can I do to get an entry?
> >>
> >> thx
> >> Bernhard
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
>
>

> Yes - but get with what? Outlook Express? CDO? CDONTS? Sockets?
>
>> All I need is the smtp error number (like 501) of ALL Bounces!
>
> That is not so simple. Bounce handling is pretty complex and often
> involves
> an own SMTP server, generating sender addresses and maybe a database.
>
>> (- and a
>> table, which error-number is which bounce type - softbounce, hardbounce -
>> but this is another thing :-) )
>
> That's simple. 4xx SMTP error code = transient error, should re-attempt
> delivery, 5xx SMTP error code = permanent error, must not re-attempt
> delivery.
>

"Raupes" <Bernhard@eworx.at> wrote in message
news:OKk5wvctEHA.3152@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl...
> ok.
> i've got the following problem:
> We move our system from one server to an other. At the new server the
system
> should send mails via the smtp.
> I've to programm a bounce management.
> that means that i've to get all errors.
> Now, at the beginning I use the qmail component from serverobjects to send
> mails. QMail allready has got some error handling. If the smtp - server
> isn't reachable it try to resend the mail and later on it put some files
> into a certain diretory.
> - fine, but -
> With QMail I never know if the mail could be sent! If the smtp server says
> ok, this is a possible email address, i won't know anything about the mail
> later on. I don't know, if any error occurs.
>
> The solution I thougt of:
> The smtp server knows what happens!
> So the smtp server has to save this errors to files, which I can open and
> read some informations of.
>
> Do you know what I mean?
>
> Later on we probably change to CDO or CDONTS - if it is nessessary and if
I
> can do more (things we need) with it.
>
> If there is no possibility to do this like I'd like to, can you give me an
> idea how to do it with CDO?
>
> thx
>
>
> > Yes - but get with what? Outlook Express? CDO? CDONTS? Sockets?
> >
> >> All I need is the smtp error number (like 501) of ALL Bounces!
> >
> > That is not so simple. Bounce handling is pretty complex and often
> > involves
> > an own SMTP server, generating sender addresses and maybe a database.
> >
> >> (- and a
> >> table, which error-number is which bounce type - softbounce,
hardbounce -
> >> but this is another thing :-) )
> >
> > That's simple. 4xx SMTP error code = transient error, should re-attempt
> > delivery, 5xx SMTP error code = permanent error, must not re-attempt
> > delivery.
> >
>
>

> So you want to create an email bounce management system that _works_? That
> will be a pretty complex.
>
> The main problem of bounce handling is that delivery problems may occur at
> any stage of the delivery process. Protocol errors just one level. For
> example, most mail servers reject non-existent recipients at protocol
> level
> in response to the RCPT TO command. Exchange 2000 however validates the
> recipient *after* it was accepted, so if the email cannot be routed to a
> valid recipient, it generates a DSN and sends it back to the email
> originator. And here you face with two further problems:
>
> 1) Although the DSN format is standardized, many MTAs generate DSNs that
> are
> non-standard compliant.
> 2) Some misconfigured MTAs and clueless anti-spam/anti-virus software does
> not agree on the definition of the "email originator".
>
> There are solutions for both problems, but all solutions I know involve
> direct access to the domain SMTP server, so you have to either create an
> own
> SMTP server (or proxy) or integrate with an SMTP server (you can do this
> using IIS SMTP and protocol event sinks).
>
> If you can tell more about the task you are trying to complete, I guess I
> can help more...
>
> Peter
> http://www.vamsoft.com/orf
>
> "Raupes" <Bernhard@eworx.at> wrote in message
> news:OKk5wvctEHA.3152@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl...
>> ok.
>> i've got the following problem:
>> We move our system from one server to an other. At the new server the
> system
>> should send mails via the smtp.
>> I've to programm a bounce management.
>> that means that i've to get all errors.
>> Now, at the beginning I use the qmail component from serverobjects to
>> send
>> mails. QMail allready has got some error handling. If the smtp - server
>> isn't reachable it try to resend the mail and later on it put some files
>> into a certain diretory.
>> - fine, but -
>> With QMail I never know if the mail could be sent! If the smtp server
>> says
>> ok, this is a possible email address, i won't know anything about the
>> mail
>> later on. I don't know, if any error occurs.
>>
>> The solution I thougt of:
>> The smtp server knows what happens!
>> So the smtp server has to save this errors to files, which I can open and
>> read some informations of.
>>
>> Do you know what I mean?
>>
>> Later on we probably change to CDO or CDONTS - if it is nessessary and if
> I
>> can do more (things we need) with it.
>>
>> If there is no possibility to do this like I'd like to, can you give me
>> an
>> idea how to do it with CDO?
>>
>> thx
>>
>>
>> > Yes - but get with what? Outlook Express? CDO? CDONTS? Sockets?
>> >
>> >> All I need is the smtp error number (like 501) of ALL Bounces!
>> >
>> > That is not so simple. Bounce handling is pretty complex and often
>> > involves
>> > an own SMTP server, generating sender addresses and maybe a database.
>> >
>> >> (- and a
>> >> table, which error-number is which bounce type - softbounce,
> hardbounce -
>> >> but this is another thing :-) )
>> >
>> > That's simple. 4xx SMTP error code = transient error, should re-attempt
>> > delivery, 5xx SMTP error code = permanent error, must not re-attempt
>> > delivery.
>> >
>>
>>
>
>

"Raupes" <Bernhard@eworx.at> wrote in message
news:ebBNT0dtEHA.2664@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl...
> Sure I want to programm one which WORKS! *g*

> I'd like to implement some rfc compatible! Because I thought that all smtp
> server has to be compatible.

> What is a MTA?

> As I know are in the mail header a parameter for "return path" and "answer
> path" (I don't know the right phrase now!) So the error will be returned
at
> the return path.

> If it is possible I change it (for e.g with cdo later on?)

> Sorry, I'm not as good in englisch and I'm a newbie at configuration of
> smtps and something like that. So I can't follow you at all.
> "For example, most mail servers reject non-existent recipients at protocol
> level in response to the RCPT TO command"
> --> So you get for something like this 501 Invalid Adress; or 4?? Mailbox
> full ???

> <-- Fine this would be what I want. But in a FILE at the local smtp of the
> iis

> "Exchange 2000 however validates the recipient *after* it was accepted,
...."
> --> So Exchange only creates soft bounces! First accept the connection and
> then say there is an error. ???

> --> I gues, the originator is the person who is the sender of the mail.
> There I could probably change the mail header -> Return Path <-

> "1) Althoug the DSN format is standardized, many MTAs generate DSNs that
are
> non-standard compilant"
> --> I hope the most are.... I think there is no possibility to get 100% -
is
> there?

> "2) Some misconfigurated MTAs and clueless anti-spam/anti-virus software
> does not agree on the definition of the "email originator".
> --> Bad administrators *g*. I can't take care about bad administration or
> wrong programming. Nobody can. But as I said, the standard functionality
> minimum the rfc spezified standard should work!
>
> This is because if bounces occur (for example 3 soft bounces or 1 hard
> bounce), email adresses in an adress-list of the application should be
> marked.
> The problem is not to programm a software. The programm is how to
configure
> the smtp of the iis that I get all the informations I've to know.

>> --> So you get for something like this 501 Invalid Adress; or 4?? Mailbox
>> full ???
>> <-- Fine this would be what I want. But in a FILE at the local smtp of
>> the
>> iis
>
> You can want it, but it will not work if the SMTP Service does not think
> so
> :)

>> "2) Some misconfigurated MTAs and clueless anti-spam/anti-virus software
>> does not agree on the definition of the "email originator".
>> --> Bad administrators *g*. I can't take care about bad administration or
>> wrong programming. Nobody can. But as I said, the standard functionality
>> minimum the rfc spezified standard should work!
>>
>> This is because if bounces occur (for example 3 soft bounces or 1 hard
>> bounce), email adresses in an adress-list of the application should be
>> marked.
>> The problem is not to programm a software. The programm is how to
> configure
>> the smtp of the iis that I get all the informations I've to know.
>
> Ah, that's just simple. Use the Drop folder instead. Emails delivered to
> the
> local domain will arrive there. You'll even have x-receiver fields!

"Raupes" <Bernhard@eworx.at> wrote in message
news:ulm9vGetEHA.1216@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
> >> --> So you get for something like this 501 Invalid Adress; or 4??
Mailbox
> >> full ???
> >> <-- Fine this would be what I want. But in a FILE at the local smtp of
> >> the
> >> iis
> >
> > You can want it, but it will not work if the SMTP Service does not think
> > so
> > :)
>
> Thats the point HOW can I make the SMTP think so? *g*
> As you know I mean how can I configure my local SMTP so.

> > Ah, that's just simple. Use the Drop folder instead. Emails delivered to
> > the
> > local domain will arrive there. You'll even have x-receiver fields!
>
> --> I can't use the drop folder! Because:
> The sender-adress is not always the same. This is why I can't spezify a
> domain for the smtp server. And probably this is, why it doesn't work?

>> Thats the point HOW can I make the SMTP think so? *g*
>> As you know I mean how can I configure my local SMTP so.
>
> Why force the SMTP to put email into the Badmail when you can get it from
> the Drop folder? Sorry, I'm just dumb :)

>> > Ah, that's just simple. Use the Drop folder instead. Emails delivered
>> > to
>> > the
>> > local domain will arrive there. You'll even have x-receiver fields!
>> --> I can't use the drop folder! Because:
>> The sender-adress is not always the same. This is why I can't spezify a
>> domain for the smtp server. And probably this is, why it doesn't work?

> So clarify the scenario. I guess it's some kind of marketing stuff: you
> want
> to send out emails in the name of your client, but you want to receive the
> bounces for him. No problem here, you can "fake" the client's domain. The
> From: header would contain your client's email address, e.g.

> > So clarify the scenario. I guess it's some kind of marketing stuff: you
> > want
> > to send out emails in the name of your client, but you want to receive
the
> > bounces for him. No problem here, you can "fake" the client's domain.
The
> > From: header would contain your client's email address, e.g.
> ...
> Year, thats right, it's about an email marketing system. [NoSpam! To Spam
> with this tool is strict forbidden]
> So I'd have to add every domain of an account to the smtp. That means, if
a
> create an account at the system I'd go to the smtp server (what isn't
> possible, cause I've no access to the live smtp server. - if it goes
> live...)
> So I'd have to add the root domain ( . ) what isn't possible or the (com,
> net, org,....) but is this the right solution? And does this work? I'm
quite
> not sure. - all as alias of course

> Ok, so one of us does not understand the scenario, that may be me, so I
> need
> clarification.

> What are true of the following for your system?
>
> 1) Your system sends out emails in the name of your client to any target
> email recipients
ehm Yes.
> 2) Your system wants to manage bounces of these emails
YES
> 3) You send out emails via your domain's own SMTP server
> 4) You want to manage bounces on your own domain's SMTP server.

> > 1) Your system sends out emails in the name of your client to any target
> > email recipients
> ehm Yes.

> > 2) Your system wants to manage bounces of these emails
> YES

> > 3) You send out emails via your domain's own SMTP server

> > 4) You want to manage bounces on your own domain's SMTP server.
> Here is the point.
> The user can say (at the mail):
> this is my FROM
> this is my TO
> Now the webapplication should be able to give this mail to the local smtp
> server form the iis. The smtp should take the mail, send it and recieve
the
> bounce. Save the bounce to any directory which i can read ;-)
>
> Okay, now I think i know what you mean.
> I can spezify a domain.
> after that I have to change the mail header so, that the bounces/errors
will
> be sent to an email adress of this domain, so the smtp saves this into the
> drop directory.
> Is this what you mean?

>> > 1) Your system sends out emails in the name of your client to any
>> > target
>> > email recipients
>> ehm Yes.
>
> Cool.
>
>> > 2) Your system wants to manage bounces of these emails
>> YES
>
> Even better.
>
>> > 3) You send out emails via your domain's own SMTP server
>
> ?
>
>> > 4) You want to manage bounces on your own domain's SMTP server.
>> Here is the point.
>> The user can say (at the mail):
>> this is my FROM
>> this is my TO
>> Now the webapplication should be able to give this mail to the local smtp
>> server form the iis. The smtp should take the mail, send it and recieve
> the
>> bounce. Save the bounce to any directory which i can read ;-)
>>
>> Okay, now I think i know what you mean.
>> I can spezify a domain.
>> after that I have to change the mail header so, that the bounces/errors
> will
>> be sent to an email adress of this domain, so the smtp saves this into
>> the
>> drop directory.
>> Is this what you mean?
>
> Yes. Bounces are just like regular emails. When are generated by the
> recipient's email server, they are returned to the email address the
> recipient server believes to be the sender address. This is either the
> Return-Path MIME field or the SMTP envelope sender address. In other
> words,
> you cannot handle bounces on a completely unrelated server, it must be
> handled on the server which is responsible for the address in the above
> fields.
>
> Let's assume that the Return-Path and the SMTP envelope sender is
> bounces@bouncemanagement.yourdomain.com. In this case, bounces will be
> delivered to bounces@bouncemanagement.yourdomain.com. The mail server
> which
> will receive these emails is the MX of the bouncemanagement.yourdomain.com
> domain.
>
> Peter
>
>

"Raupes" <Bernhard@eworx.at> wrote in message
news:eHqe7OqtEHA.2664@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl...
> OK, if the smtp server envelope the sender adress...

> So there is no possibility for me to check the bounce.

> And the SMTP doesn't do his job like he sould (I think - RFC)

> Are there any percentages about this? how many does that?

> I think I've understand this now - a little more than before although I
> don't know how to configure this thing correct, but I think I'll do it.
> Okay thanks so far!
> greez from Austria

> Almost every SMTP server does its job, sure there are lots of
> misconfigured
> servers, but basically the concept should work. Bounce tracking software
> do
> this since years and it works.

"Raupes" <Bernhard@eworx.at> wrote in message
news:OYfy5cqtEHA.3572@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl...
> > Almost every SMTP server does its job, sure there are lots of
> > misconfigured
> > servers, but basically the concept should work. Bounce tracking software
> > do
> > this since years and it works.
>
> Ok. But at a webapplication, I've to believe, that the browser works.
> If send an email I've to believe, that the smtp does his job.
> If there is a missconfiguration nobody can do something against it. -
except
> the admin -
> So those bounces will be lost. OK so it should be.